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Old 01-11-2011, 07:05 PM   #1
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Default Kidding Problems

I am new to the forums, and semi-new to raising goats. I have read books, forums and watched videos on you-tube, to learn as much as I can about how to care for my goats, but am discovering that book knowledge does NOT cover everything.

I had a goat that had a difficult kidding back in the last week of December. I know the signs to watch for, tail up, back arched, mucus etc. When I saw her mucus come out, I called the vet and he said if she had not had it by 3 that evening, to call him back.

She had not delivered by 3, I called him back, he asked me to bring her in. I thought he was going to help with the delivery, but instead he gave me a lesson on what to do if position was not right, and sent us home to "let nature take its course".

He said she should have the kid before morning. Morning came, and the kid had not arrived. I called the vet again, they told me he was out for farm calls that day and would return my call.

I have a friend in Montana that I called, she helped talk me through how to feel for the kid, but I couldn't get my hand in fully to tell. I could feel a hoof, but that was all. To make a long story short, I was able to determine she wasn't dialating, my friend had her vet in Montana call me, and she told me I had to get the vet to give her a shot or do the c-section.

I was able to find one vet almost halfway across the state that would have come and done an emergency c-section if I could have paid the $1,000 but I didn't have it

My vet just poofed on me, never returned my calls, STILL have not heard from him.

I was finally on day three able to get a friend over who was able to pull the kid out. I had originally called her husband to come shoot my goat, she had been in severe pain for more than 48 hours by this time and it was breaking my heart. They raise horses, his wife I found out had helped others in the past with problem deliveries even with goats so she offered to come help and see if she could do anything.

She said the goat was "dry" and that the baby was all twisted up, head below chest, one leg out (the one I felt) and one leg under, she explained how she was able to get her hand under the kids head. I had spent all night massaging her cervix every 30 minutes, she had dialated enough by this time where my friend was able to go in (she has very tiny hands) and get the kid out. The kid did not survive, but she was able to save my goat.

she said not every delivery was this problemic, and that I should have better luck with my other 2 who were due.

Now again, I know what to watch for, back up, tail up, enlarging udders etc. My other goat, snow white, on the 8th she was fine, none of the signs at all other than back raised a little bit. Blue eyes, my first delivery, had arched back for 3 weeks before the mucus showed, so I figured snow white still had PLENTY of time.

On the 9th, the kids went to feed the goats and came running back to tell me snow white had blood hanging from her.

I ran to the pen, and saw the afterbirth hanging out of her, the kid was in the corner, already dead.

My FIL said a change in weather can make a goat go into labor, on the 9th we were getting winter storm warnings about an ice storm, so I don't know if this made her go into labor or not but she didn't have ANY of the signs of birth being soon. I was planning to move her into the greenhouse, where it is warmer for the kid, when I saw her mucus, or udders grow.

Once I stopped crying (my husband buried the kid), my oldest daughter told me she was still "pushing".

When I saw that, I moved her to the greenhouse, and made a call to the friend who had saved blue eyes earlier. She told me that sometimes twins are in seperate sacs, and that the next one should be born by noon yesterday.

I stayed up all night with her in the greenhouse, examined her occassionally, but figured since nature did fine with the first, it would do fine with this one.

Come morning (yesterday), there was still no baby. She is fully dialated, my hand can go in her much easier than it could with blue eyes, but I can't tell if there is a kid in her or not. I do not feel a hoof or anything. I can get my hand in about right above wrist, my friend had to go almost to elbow to get the other kid out.

I tried to examine her again this morning, I can't get the vet, my friend can't come help this time, we had an ice storm and the roads are not safe, but my poor goat is still trying to push something out and I can't help her.

She is not in pain like blue eyes was with her delivery, she just keeps walkign around, stopping, pushing. I see something moving inside her, on the left side I think it may be the rumen, but the right side, I can't tell if it's a kid or a contraction.

She's already passed the afterbirth, so why would she still be trying to push something out?

The last time I examined her, she started bleeding like crazy, that's how I found this forum. I gave her a shot of pennicillan, and kept an eye on her, right now the bleeding has stopped but it makes me too scared to examine her again.

I don't know what to do, I moved her back to the pen so that she would at least be happy with her other goat friends, she was miserable in the greenhouse.

She's walking around, eating, playing, not acting like she is in any pain, but she is still pushing, usually a big push about 20 minutes to an hour apart.

Can anyone help me figure out how to help her? Do I just leave her alone, and "let nature take its course" even if it could mean she may have a dead kid in her by now? I can't even drive her to the vet that is far away (he's cheaper if I bring to the office during office hours). I can't drive on these icy roads.

I have one more goat due GOD only knows when. Now I don't trust to watch for any signs. When I bought my goats I did not KNOW to schedule their breeding, I thought I could trust my vet, and I figured he'd be the one to call if I had problems. I have learned my lesson, from now on, I will time EVERYTHING and keep trying to learn as best as I can, without relying so heavily on a "vet".

Now I see he's not trustworthy, and my heart is breaking, not just because my goats are suffering, but because I feel like I may have made a mistake in trying to raise goats, I hate to see an animal suffer, and this is tearing my heart to pieces.

I don't know how to help snow white, and I don't know what to do about billy jean, the one that's pregnant still.

Letting nature take it's course seems to be the general attitude of the farmers around here, but we don't let nature take it's course with humans, we shouldn't with animals either We should be able to help them, and I feel so helpless right now.

I just wanted to post here to see if anyone can explain what Snow White is doing right now, with her still pushing. Is this normal even after the afterbirth has been passed?

Are the movements on the RIGHT side normal, can contractions look like a baby moving? I know on the left side, it could be rumen movement, but why the right side?

And if the movement is just contractions, why is she still having them? She passed ALOT of afterbirth, so I don't think there's some still left in her, but I don't know how to tell.

I'm sorry for the long post, I just found this forum on google, have called everyone I know to call, they all say "if it's a baby, she should have had it by now, call the vet" and I can't get her to a vet



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Old 01-11-2011, 07:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: Kidding Problems

I am so very sorry you are going through this.....I only have wethers and do not breed.....but there are many on here that can help you out and hopefully will see this soon and offer advice. Wish I could help you



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Old 01-11-2011, 07:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: Kidding Problems

Welcome...welcome....

The vet didn't sound that helpful..or supportive....that is sad...

When a Doe pushing ...that is the best way... to indicate she is in labor...
if she wasn't in true labor...then she isn't quite ready to kid.... Just the things you mentioned..alone.... aren't an indication she is ready for labor...it is the pushing.......

What a God send....So glad a friend was able to help her...instead of putting her down.... I am sorry ...the kid didn't make it.....

I am also sorry ...about the other losses ...so devastating....
Remember... if a Doe has already started labor.... it is crucial... to get the kid out...within 30 minutes or less... if the Doe doesn't have the kid ....within that time frame....you must intervene....or you can loose the kid ....or the Doe....

If the Doe is still open ....and she is pushing......there is most likely.. a kid in there ...the kid must be... way down in there..... you are going to have to go in ....keep working on her and try to get your arm to go in deeper...to reach for and get the kid out.......that kid must come out.....


Quote:
My FIL said a change in weather can make a goat go into labor,
I never heard of that.....and never had that happen....


The left side is the rumen....


Quote:
She's already passed the afterbirth, so why would she still be trying to push something out?
There are some... that may have a dead kid.. behind the afterbirth.....it does and can happen....

The blood ....is most likely... from the placenta...and birthing... which is normal....some have alot of blood... come out and we worry....but it stops shortly after.....so.... if she isn't still bleeding..... it is just the mess inside ....that will come out for the next 2 weeks or so..... I would go in..... if she is still open and pushing..... check to see if ...their are any kids left in there....

TGS is here for you.....vets can be ignorant in goats.....
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Kidding Problems

Thank you Denise, I hope my post makes sense, I'm thankful to have found this forum also. I wouldn't have found it if she hadn't started bleeding, that scared the crap out of me, I didn't want her bleeding to death.

Right now she's still waling around the pen, not bleeding, but still pushing every 20 minutes to an hour, at least from what I can tell, me and the children are checking on her, taking turns, one every 10 minutes.

She seems happy enough, except when she's pushing, then she has the curled lips, the glassy look, and something is moving her right side????? This has me so baffled, but not as paniced since she is acting as normal as usual between pushes.

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Old 01-11-2011, 07:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: Kidding Problems

I am so very sorry that you have had such a rough start with your first kiddings.

If she is still pushing, then there is likely still a kid in there...bump her to see if you can feel one, movement of a kid is noticed on the right side.
To bump her, straddle her facing her butt, get your arms around her with your hands under her belly just in front of her udder, gently pull up then let go with her belly hitting your hands...if there is a kid, you'll feel it thump in your hands. Also, IF you can get into her with a very well lubed up hand and her cervix is still open, the kid may be in an off position and can't come into the canal or it also could be dead, and too stiff to manuever.
IF you go into her do it slow...it's very hard to hear them cry but do know that you are trying to help her...stay calm, once you are in and can turn your hand, gently feel for anything..a hoof or head or even a back, if you can feel anything kid like, rotate your hand around it to get a feel for what part it is, if you can get the head in the right direction, her pushing can bring it up to where you will be able to hook a front leg for delivery...give her some very warm molasses water to keep her energy up and a few squirts of Nutri Drench too...Calcium drench will also benefit her. Keep her warm and as long as she is contracting and pushing, there is a kid in there.

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Old 01-11-2011, 08:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: Kidding Problems

I agree with Liz...it sounds like there is still a kid in there. I have had does that passed placentas then had another kid...right or wrong - normal or not...it can happen. If you do go in - wash your hands really well first(or even use surgical gloves) then use something like KY gel to lube your hand so you can insert easier. It makes it a little harder to get ahold of baby - but it's easier to get inside. Call your friend again (if possible) and see if she can come help. The goat WILL scream and yell when you go inside to feel for a baby - but it's better than losing one or both of them by not trying. You will think your hand won't fit, but it will...I didn't think I could do it the first time I had to turn a baby, but it can be done. Good luck...saying prayers for you and the goats to get through this.

If the baby is presenting butt first, or head first with legs behind, you wouldn't feel feet...you may need to feel for baby...then feel down baby's body and try to find legs and feet. You CAN do this....just have faith in yourself, say a prayer for some help and guidance, and hand in there.

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Old 01-11-2011, 08:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Kidding Problems

Thank you everyone for the replies, I did call my friend, and explained what's going on. I had hoped they were coming to check on their horses today, we let their horses stay in our pasture until they can get their pasture more suitable.

They are not driving out today, but she said what I am feeling is most likely the water bag, and that I can't feel the kid until it breaks.

When I get my hand up to my wrist, the cervix is still opened, and what I feel is like a mushy, balloon.

I examined her again, to be sure, and again, it feels like a balloon, and I didn't want to poke around too much in case I broke it.

I milked her again to freeze the colostrum (we plan to bottle feed any surviving kids, and keep them in the house, out of the cold until it's warm enough for them to go outside), and her right side is still moving. I asked my friend if I was correct that the rumen moves the left side, and asked her if that movement on the right could be a contraction, she said no, not with it moving that much.

She said it sounds like the kid is still in it's bag, it's moving, there's no "danger" to worry about yet. She told me to move her BACK into the greenhouse where it's warm, and check her every 10 minutes.

She said it's not unheard of to have a twin in a seperate sac wait this long to come out, rare but not unheard of, but that they would be coming again to check the horses tomorrow, and that she would check her for me tomorrow, but that I shouldn't worry unless snow white starts acting odd, sick, unwell, running a high temp or in distress.

She said the movement means the baby is ok, and it's not a dead kid in her. I wasn't too sure how it could still be alive, but I guess it makes sense, it's still in it's bag, but geesh, I never knew labor could be so stressful

Liz, I read about the "bouncing" to see if another kid is in the womb, I found that on google on some goat site. When I bounce her, there is something in her. That's what I have been telling my husband, he says put her out back in the pen and leave her, I say but if there's another baby, I don't want it to die too.

I told him there is SOMETHING in there, but I can't tell what, contractions, baby, more afterbirth? The movement on the right side looks like a ball moving onher side, just like a human baby does when it moves it's foot. It will go around, down, back, then in. The rumen side, when I see movement on that side, I can hear the rumen sometimes, sometimes not.

She also isn't tiny like blue eyes was once she delivered, she is still HUGE.

Also, the molasses water, that can be given during labor also? I thought it was only for after delivery, but if it won't hurt the kid during labor, I will go give her some now.

Again thank you all for your help, this is baffling me to no end, but I can see the good out of this. This learning experience is going to save me a lot of money in the future, because the vet has lost my business where my goats are concerned (my dog will still go see him, at least he is reliable when one makes an appointment).

I was going to pay the vet to do all of this, but if I have to learn, I'll learn. Maybe it's better that I learn anyways, I'm always available for my goats, day or night.

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Old 01-11-2011, 09:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: Kidding Problems

This doe CANNOT wait until tomorrow....she's already been laboring WAY TOO LONG you need to break that sack and help the kid, Give her the molasses water and wash up and lube up...break the sack because that kid is not in the right position to ALLOW delivery, the sooner this is done the better chance of survival the kid has...and each kid has it's own sack, there is usually one chorionic sack with kids in each amniotic sack. PLEASE, don't panic or be scared, this kid needs to be delivered now.

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Old 01-11-2011, 09:09 PM   #9
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I'm going out to feed...will be back shortly. I'm here and will offer phone assistance if you want.

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Old 01-11-2011, 09:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Kidding Problems

Your welcome ....


Quote:
When I get my hand up to my wrist, the cervix is still opened, and what I feel is like a mushy, balloon.
It may be that ...she didn't pass all the placenta..... but you need to make sure .. and go deeper in her while she is open.... Sometimes if a kid doesn't make it to full term and dies within they can start rotting inside...and the Doe tries to reabsorb the kid...it feel mushy..... but needs to come out... Does the Doe have a foul odor ...from the vulva at all?

At this point popping any bag within....doesn't matter as you have to make sure there is no kid in there....just don't pull out any afterbirth.....


Quote:
She said it sounds like the kid is still in it's bag, it's moving, there's no "danger" to worry about yet. She told me to move her BACK into the greenhouse where it's warm, and check her every 10 minutes.
I am sorry but I do not agree.... if she is already in active pushing labor....that kid needs to come out now....if by chance the kid is alive ....if you wait to long the kid will die...I hate to scare you...but this is a fact.....I am very concerned....for the baby and your Doe....that is risking the life of the Doe as well....

Quote:
She said it's not unheard of to have a twin in a seperate sac wait this long to come out, rare but not unheard of
I myself never heard of this...when they are in labor the kids should be born realitivly(sp) quickly if all is coming out as it should....

Quote:
Also, the molasses water, that can be given during labor also?
yes it is OK....

Quote:
I was going to pay the vet to do all of this, but if I have to learn, I'll learn. Maybe it's better that I learn anyways, I'm always available for my goats, day or night.
I see this as an emergency and I would call a vet.....I am very concerned......


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