Copper toxicity? ***update*** pg 2

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by myfainters, Sep 7, 2010.

  1. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    I did our copper bolusing today as a few of our goats are starting to show deficiencies.... one doeling in particular has a VERY brittle coat and the noticeable fish tail. I gave her a dosage (in bread) and she quite enjoyed it.. however I had a handful with a few other goats dosages and my herd queen bumped it out of my hand.... my doeling ( the deficient one) ate 3 kid dosages before I could collect them all... how concerned should I be????????
     
  2. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    Liz had a situation, and I think that it was with copper - however, she didn't do the bolus I believe - but something else. hopefully she will be on soon to let you know her experience.
     

  3. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    I really hope she will be ok.... it is my 5 year olds goat and she loves her sooooo much. :( She Spends her evenings giving her treats, taking her for walks and giving her hugs and lots of love. Plus she is the only polled, blue eyed doeling my 6 year old moonspotted doe has ever produced. :hair: She has only given me horned doelings in the past. :(
     
  4. liz

    liz New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    I had used a copper sulphate drench and the signs of toxicity were immediate, typical signs of poisoning, throwing themselves down and crying out. I did lose a doe almost 48 hours later and she showed no sign of poisoning, was off for a day and I thought she'd be allright, I found her dead early the next morning...it was like she died in her sleep. :(

    Copper will affect the liver function first, toxicity arises when the liver is taxed...I'm not sure how to treat when a bolus is given but what I did with Stacey and Ashley's help was to give them activated charcoal followed by doses of milk of magnesia....I do believe that this is what saved the two year old does, Tilly, the one that passed didn't show the signs that they did but she was given MOM anyhow...I'm thinking that IF I would have given them all the charcoal I likely wouldn't have lost her.
     
  5. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    now I am not an expert on this BUT from my limited learning the rods are slow release of copper into their system once the rods attach themselves to the lining of the rumen.

    SO with that inmind I would give her MOM and some activated charcoal. The MOM will help to pass everything a long faster which inturn will keep the rods from settling. The Charcoal helps in absorbing toxins.

    I have heard of people giving lots of copper with no ill effects but if it was my goat and knowing how special she is the above is what I would do for the reasons specified.
     
  6. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    there's something called (& I may have this only partly right) called molyembem?? is it? to counteract copper but have no experience
     
  7. liz

    liz New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    nancy, you're on the right track....molybedum is naturally found in the soil as well as plants and if there is an imbalance due to too much iron in the soil it will cause malabsorption of copper, I don't know wether molybedum can be purchased to use as a counter action or if there would be any side affects from it's use.
     
  8. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    corning california
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    I will pray... that they will be OK.... :hug: :pray:
     
  9. Gumtree

    Gumtree Lurking Aussie

    585
    Aug 15, 2009
    S.E. Qld Australia
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    charcoal powder / tabs, will help with poisoning, we've had to use it with copper drench,
    dolomite & vitamin c are also helpful
     
  10. Plumbago

    Plumbago New Member

    59
    Jan 21, 2008
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    Hope this helps .... If too much copper is administered orally - dolomite, vitamin C powder orally and vitamin B15 injections together give a quick cure
     
  11. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    She'll be fine.

    I *personally know* people who use the entire 12.5g bolus on every goat in their herd, once a year -- kids and adults alike. If it's big enough to swallow a bolus that big, it gets one. I also know another guy whom I got interested in copper bolusing, and he does the same thing -- gives a whole calf bolus. He bolused two *terrible* auction does not long ago...skin and bones...using an old tobacco stick as a bolus gun. Did it before he even got them home. They're fine...no problem.

    Besides that, you gave the boluses in bread...that's a no-no to begin with. The copper oxide wire particles are designed in a very specific way to stick in the folds of the abomasum.. If they're chewed up, versus being swallowed whole, the physical properties of the wire particles are changed and they may not function properly.

    She'll be fine. :)
     
  12. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    cmjust0 you can give it in the bread - we have had several discussions on this and seen good results with different methods of administering the copper particles.
     
  13. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    Runs counter to everything I've read, but I'll defer to real-world experience since I've never given it that way.

    I have to ask, though...what's the advantage of giving it *in* something (I've read about doing it in bread, mashed-up bananas, etc) versus just giving it as a bolus?
     
  14. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    Putting it in food is much easier for some than trying to force a bolus down them.....less stress for the owner and the goat......I have read and read on the different ways to give and still don't know what I think is the best way, but I did just bolused my boys 2 weeks ago and I gave the copper in a mashed banana for the first time instead of the bolus and it did go smoother. I have to say that my boys are starting to show the benefits as always after bolusing, so giving it in the mashed banana must not have mattered.....looks to me it was just as effective as giving it in a bolus.....and the boys did not run from me for 2 days afterwards......I have to say I was a bit unsure of giving it in food.
     
  15. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    I can understand that..

    I really had trouble bolusing at first, but I was using one of those el-cheapo $2 plastic calf balling guns from TSC. Then I dropped $20 on this bolus gun at Valley Vet:

    http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html ... b0d0204ae5

    ...and never looked back. It's amazing how much difference a good balling gun makes. The rubber tube part at the end is kinda 'tacky' and holds pills pretty well, plus you don't have to worry about scraping the back of their throat and/or them biting the gun in half..

    Well worth the money, IMO.. :)

    And, no, I won't make a dime if someone buys one. lol
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    its all about making the job easier on the owner and goat. The goats like to eat treats, we feed a treat and they get "meds" how much easier can it get ;)
     
  17. Mully

    Mully New Member

    408
    Jun 23, 2009
    Mt Ulla , NC
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    Dip the end of the balling gun in some molasses and the goats will think they are getting something great and not struggle.
     
  18. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    Well Ember is doing fine! Thank GOODNESS!!!!!! :) I guess she really was pretty deficient! LOL

    As far as feeding the copper in food... a fainting goat breeder friend of mine did a study with her vet where they bolused (via marshmallows) and then used ultrasounds on a regular time schedule until they could no longer find any more rods in the goat... pretty interesting. Pictures of the X rays can be seen on her website. www.goatspots.com :) So yep.... you can give it in food and have them chew it and still get the same results. :)
     
  19. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    From that website:

    "In the x-rays below there are many copper rods in 3 different sections of the rumen, ..."

    Unfortunately, the rumen is *not* where the rods are supposed to end up. They're supposed to be passed out of the rumen and stick in the abomasum.

    What I've always read is that when the rods are chewed in food, they don't function properly...this case study would actually seem to support that argument.
     
  20. MiGoat

    MiGoat New Member

    304
    Apr 21, 2010
    West Michigan
    Re: Copper toxicity???

    Some people give a kid a whole cow bolus. The copper in copasure does not absorb well at all.

    From all I've read I wouldn't worry about it.