Featured Ideas on helping this buck - joint issue?

Discussion in 'Goat Management' started by HoosierShadow, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Please bear with me on this 'book' of a post. I don't want to leave anything out, and really need some ideas if anyone has any that can help.

    A while back in the health section I asked if there was anything we could do to help a young buck's back legs get stronger. He seems very flexible from the hock down. Proper hoof trimming is definitely part of it, but I wonder if there is anything else we can do to help strengthen his back legs. He is strong, but stands funny, his outside toe on each foot seems to roll under even with some corrective trimming, which makes his hocks roll outward.

    He is such a nice boy, my son wants to show him in an ABGA show, so I am really stressing about getting him ready. I have a farrier friend who is going to trim him again for me.

    I feel he has been getting enough selenium, but wonder about Vit E?
    3/05 (born) Selenium E Gel
    4/05 Selenium E Gel
    4/19 Selenium E Gel
    5/09 1/2cc Bo-Se (guessing he was 60-65lbs)
    7/03 Selenium E Gel

    Noticed his back feet got worse in the last month, especially mid July.

    This is his feed, although he doesn't like to eat the 'dust' so I need to find out what that is, if it's the mineral pack, then he's not getting the full benefit of the minerals.
    [​IMG]

    He gets a tiny bit of this feed as well since this is what they eat outside of show season
    [​IMG]

    We are currently using Manna Pro minerals but they don't really eat them.

    Video was taken about a month ago right before first trimming with farrier


    Day after trimming


    He's back to walking like he did in the 1st video, and stands really goofy on those back feet.
    He's a very nice young buck, and would love for him to be at his full potential. I don't know if there is a supplement we could try, or something we can add to help correct him?
    Vitamin E? Copper? Surely he's had enough Selenium? Too much Selenium? Or just the way he is?

    Pics from about a week ago -
    [​IMG]

    The older buck in this drive is his sire. For size comparison, the buck in front of him is about 4+ months older.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    corning california
    Wow, that is strange, his sire is strong on his feet.
     

  3. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    So are all of the goats in his female family that we've had over the years. It's strange.
    I gave him a 2-3 gram copper bolus (took some out of a 4 gram that I had), a little more selenium e gel, and he is currently getting a couple of Vit E gel caps daily per suggestion from a breeder. We're going to put a piece of plywood or stall mat on the goat stand the next time we trim feet as suggested by a good friend, and see if when we trim that helps. I do think the holes that are in the bottom of the goat stand make him stand a bit odd and make it hard to assess his issue.
    He's such a nice young buck, growing really well, and has a great personality.
     
  4. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    corning california
    It is confusing for sure, just make sure you don't overdose either, as it can create the same issues or worse.

    Keep us updated.
     
  5. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Thanks Pam! I've been giving him 2 Vit E capsules 400 units, but I know he doesn't get the complete dosage. I'm not sure how much Vit E they should have, so I've been leary about continuing it past today? I'll assess his feet again on flat surface but it may be tomorrow before I can do it.
     
    toth boer goats likes this.
  6. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    corning california
    It is hard to say.
     
  7. mariarose

    mariarose Active Member

    654
    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    Because I live in a HIGH sulpher area, my goats need gobs and gobs of copper and selenium, so that deficiency was my first idea, and my second idea, and my last idea. But if your other goats don't show this, then it is probably not (solely) a copper/selenium need.

    I'm not crazy about Manna Pro Minerals. I like Co-op goat minerals and Right Now Onyx minerals better, and so do my goats. Perhaps if he is not eating the one you are giving him, then he isn't getting a certain combination he needs to fully realize the benefits of the copper/selenium/Vit E you've given him???

    Whatever is wrong, it seems to be a weakness targeted toward him, particularly. Perhaps consider wethering him to be certain he does not pass on a genetic weakness???

    You take such great care of your goats. This is not neglect on your part.
     
  8. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Thanks, he seems a little better. Hopefully with continue work on his feet, and supplements he'll be fine. I'm not sure how much Vit E is safe, so we didn't give him any this morning, I'll give him some tomorrow. I forgot to ask the feed store if he can figure out how much Vit E is in the feed that we're using.
    There is no family history of any issues, but I will say his dam had copper deficiency in the late spring, so maybe it is that (she had fishtail).
    His sire had a leg doing something similar back in January, we gave him a shot of Bo-Se, and copper bolus, and he improved. This boy has had plenty of selenium, but not sure about Vit E. First copper bolus was days ago. So if he improves it has to be copper or Vit E.
    We do need to keep trimming the inside toes (as Pam has suggested to me). He wants to roll under on those outside toes.

    He's a really nice boy, no way I'd wether him unless it's found to be a genetic issue. He may not be a show stopping buck, but he has potential to be a nice buck. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel he will get better on his feet with age and proper care & proper hoof care.

    As for minerals, I am not a fan of the manna pro, but I've bought about 4 different brands of minerals now and our goats won't touch them. I'm really tired of throwing away $$ :(
     
    toth boer goats and mariarose like this.
  9. mariarose

    mariarose Active Member

    654
    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    It sounds like you have a solid plan, so good luck going forward.

    4 different kinds of mineral? That must have been very discouraging.
     
  10. mariarose

    mariarose Active Member

    654
    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    I've started seeing great improvement in my herd by offering (free choice) one of the 2 kinds of mineral I mentioned, copper sulfate powder, and a 4-1 mixture of Kelp Meal and ground flax seed meal. Improvement especially in the legs.
     
    HoosierShadow likes this.
  11. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator

    That is where once a week Replamin Plus does a great job. You know they are getting minerals and you really don't have to worry about the loose mineral.
     
    mariarose likes this.
  12. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    I've definitely considered the Replamin Plus and came close to ordering it! But most of our goats have all recently had Bo-Se or Selenium E Gel as well as adults getting copper bolus, so I was afraid I'd overdose them on it.

    As for minerals, we've tried Sweetlix (spelling?) from Bagdad Feed (we use their goat pelleted feed on most of our herd), Southern States, and a couple of other brands and nada. I think the only mineral we ever had luck getting them to eat was a loose cattle mineral, and years ago when we first got into goats we bought some goat minerals from McRay's feed in Harrodsburg. I think they ate the Purina Goat Minerals as well. I've debated ordering the Purina minerals again.

    We are on city water, so no worries about sulfur here.
     
    toth boer goats and mariarose like this.
  13. mariarose

    mariarose Active Member

    654
    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    Is the land on which your hay is grown, or your pasture, high in sulphur or iron?

    I ask, because in my area of KY, the sulphur is in the plants as well, my forage acreage, pasturage, and where my hay is grown (right down the road from us.) is high in those minerals. If I don't keep a constant supply of copper and selenium available, then the deficiency keeps increasing. (My goats are usually on trucked in water from town, too. Our creeks are regularly dry or too stagnant to use, so we haul water from the town water tower.)

    As I said, I've always been impressed by your attentive care of your livestock. You'll fix this the best way for you.
     
    toth boer goats likes this.
  14. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Thanks so much Mariarose I appreciate your kind comments. We try our best, and every turn there is something new to learn.
    I honestly am not sure about mineral/vitamin levels. We do buy local hay from a farmer down the road. I've heard the soil around here is good, but that's all I know. I'll have to request info from our extension office and see if any tests have been done in my area to confirm high or low levels.
    I do know we usually don't have any issues with seeing deficiencies except in our red goats. Usually 1 copper bolus takes care of the issue, but I've had to give both the does 2 - 4 gram doses, about a week or two apart before I saw improvement (fishtail/bald tail tips).

    This buck's dam had the start of fish tail, but a 4 gram bolus was enough for her. But that sure makes me think copper deficiency is a possibility with this guy since she had it.
     
    toth boer goats and mariarose like this.
  15. mariarose

    mariarose Active Member

    654
    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    I'd love to learn more about what Pam told you about fixing this by trimming. If you get a chance, could you post pictures as you start the corrective trimming?
     
  16. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    His outside back toes roll under, so trimming them longer than the inside toe could help bring him up on those outside toes. It did help with the last show when my farrier friend worked on them. It may be hard to tell from the videos I posted but first video was before trim, 2nd was right after trim. I could see a difference in him after the trim, he walked a little more sound, and that hock didn't flex as bad.
     
    toth boer goats likes this.