Urinary Calculi

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Walter, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. Walter

    Walter New Member

    4
    Jun 3, 2012
    Southeast Ga.
    I know there are many topics on this and other forums across our lovely world of the internet , And I have read many opinions on this and we still have many questions .
    We lost a very pretty male pygmy goat a few months ago to Urinary Calculi . Yes we had gain in his diet . He was 4 months old .We always use medicated goat feed with Ammonium Chloride in it . We have 3 weathers 4 females and 1 new buck ( 3 months old ) . Now the questions .
    Is the alfalfa/timothy pellets like the one you find at tractor supply safe to feed my weathers and new buck ?
    Is the goat feed with Ammonium Chloride safe ?
    We mainly feed hay as their main source of feed during the winter . The gain and alfalfa timothy pellets only as a supplement . We offer Manna Pro Goat Mineral freely . We have been raising goats for 6 years and this is our first loss to Urinary Calculi and want to make sure we are doing every thing we can to prevent this from happen again .
     
  2. Suzanne_Tyler

    Suzanne_Tyler GreenTGoats

    Jul 19, 2014
    Pinnacle, NC
    You need the calcium to phosphorous ratio of the whole diet to be between 2:1 and 4:1. The higher on calcium, the better.

    Most feeds are too high in phosphorous. Check your feed.

    Alfalfa is high in calcium, so is often used to balance out the feed.

    The ammonium chloride should have prevented UC, I wonder why it didn't. But I think it's better to change the diet ot management practices, instead of just treating the symptoms.
     

  3. ShireRidgeFarm

    ShireRidgeFarm Active Member

    786
    Sep 24, 2015
    Northern WV
    I have fed my goats the alfalfa pellets from Tractor Supply and they were fine. Grass and most hay are a phosphorus source, so it can be possible to get too much phosphorus even without grain.

    I *think* I heard somewhere that the ammonium chloride in grain is often deactivated by some other ingredient that is added. Not sure if that is true or not, but, anyway, I don't trust the ammonium chloride in the grain to be good for anything. And, really, ammonium chloride is more of a 'maybe' in preventing urinary stones. It might dissolve stones that are beginning to form, as they are not water soluble but are soluble in suitably acidic conditions. The right calcium to phosphorus ratio is really the only way to make sure stones are not formed.

    So sorry about your buck :( Urinary stones are awful.
     
  4. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator

    Ammonium chloride in feed isn't enough. Instead of alfalfa Timothy pellets, feed just alfalfa pellets.
     
  5. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    corning california
    All good advice.
     
  6. Walter

    Walter New Member

    4
    Jun 3, 2012
    Southeast Ga.
    Thank You for the help !!
     
  7. ThreeHavens

    ThreeHavens 7 does - 2 bucks - 1 wether

    Oct 20, 2011
    New Jersey
    Unfortunately, for some reason, the ammonium chloride in feed still doesn't seem to be enough to make the grain "safe". :( I hate UC. I feed all my boys just hay and alfalfa pellets, and I give them some extra ammonium chloride in their minerals every couple of weeks for peace of mind.

    I'm awfully sorry for your loss. :(
     
  8. happybleats

    happybleats Active Member

    Sep 12, 2010
    Gustine Texas
    baking soda can also deactivate Amm. chloride. Im so sorry for your loss..did the vet tell you the type of stones he had. there are certain breed/ blood lines that calcium is the cause of stones..its more rare then Phos. I am thinking pygmy is a breed more susceptible to calcium stones is why I ask.
     
  9. MoonShadow

    MoonShadow FancyDay Farm

    825
    Mar 1, 2015

    Very interesting, I didn't know that.
    I'm off to do research!!:type:
     
  10. minibarn

    minibarn Active Member

    Jul 20, 2010
    ontario canada
    Has anyone ever heard of cranberry juice helping to dissolve urinary stones? I recently bought a young buckling, 4 months old, who got sick within 2 days of bringing him home. In watching him, I thought he's not peeing so was thinking it might be urinary stones. I asked vet for ammonium chloride but they didn't have any so she suggested giving cranberry juice. Next time I was out he was peeing fine and turned out it was pneumonia(shipping fever) instead. Gave antibiotics for 5 days and he recovered fine. But I'm curious....anyone else ever hear of giving cranberry juice?
     
  11. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator

    For a UTI, not to dissolve stones.
     
  12. Clehmanktm57319

    Clehmanktm57319 Potato chip farm

    58
    Aug 6, 2016
    pitts pa
    I've heard an also add apple cider vinegar to the water ????? If it helps but it doesn't hurt so.
     
  13. Suzanne_Tyler

    Suzanne_Tyler GreenTGoats

    Jul 19, 2014
    Pinnacle, NC
    Yes, ACV can also be used. It isn't as powerful or effective as AC but it does help when used as a preventative.
     
  14. minibarn

    minibarn Active Member

    Jul 20, 2010
    ontario canada
    OK thanks. I was just surprised that cranberry juice was her best advice.
     
  15. happybleats

    happybleats Active Member

    Sep 12, 2010
    Gustine Texas
    I believe Goat Hiker shared a good bit on this...
    Which include Boer and Pygmy.
     
  16. MoonShadow

    MoonShadow FancyDay Farm

    825
    Mar 1, 2015
    I suppose that would include Nigerian dwarfs as well? I believe they are of West African ancestry.
    Which would make sense since I know a lot of ND's suffer from stones, and even with Amm Chloride, ACV, herbal tea, and diet control I still battle stones/gravel with a couple of my boys.
     
  17. Walter

    Walter New Member

    4
    Jun 3, 2012
    Southeast Ga.
    "Calcium Carbonate stones are very much an African breed problem, they are so rare as to be almost a nonissue in other breeds." So stay away from Alfalfa ??
     
  18. lottsagoats1

    lottsagoats1 Well-Known Member

    Apr 12, 2014
    Middle Maine
    I feed my bucks a pelleted feed that contains AC, their minerals contain AC also. Neither source is truly enough to take care of UC, so they also get Alfalfa and beet pulp, both are sources of calcium.

    I do not have Pygmies, I have standard Nubian and Lamancha bucks and a Nigerian buck.
     
  19. ShireRidgeFarm

    ShireRidgeFarm Active Member

    786
    Sep 24, 2015
    Northern WV
    This is an intriguing question! I don't really know the answer, but I honestly can't imagine that removing calcium (or phosphorus for that matter) could be a good solution.

    The way I see it, the key is really the right balance of the two elements. If there is not enough phosphorus to bond to the calcium, the calcium will precipitate out as urinary stones. If there is not enough calcium to bond to the phosphorus, the phosphorus will precipitate out as urinary stones.
     
  20. happybleats

    happybleats Active Member

    Sep 12, 2010
    Gustine Texas
    in my opinion, no. because its not very common to have calcium stone from how I understand it..but the african breeds are the only ones who will deal with it IF AT ALL. I think sticking with the 2:1 ratio is important. If you suspect UC or your buck ends up with UC then test the stones so you know. here is the full quote made on the subject in response to a comment made.....