Was sold a cryptorchid buckling as a pet wether, what to do?

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by nbelval, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. nbelval

    nbelval New Member

    Aug 29, 2013
    I would love to get feedback on what others feel I should do and if I should hold the breeder financially responsible for any procedure that may have to be performed. So here goes!

    Here is what I emailed the breeder:


    The goats are doing well and we love them dearly! We do have an issue with one of them. He was the brown/good moon spotted boy that needed to be dehorned twice and also had an undescended testicle.
    I'm curious if the vet actually removed that testicle or just the descended one?
    I know you said both had been removed, but wondering if there was a mixup in communication between the vet and you or you and me and I got the wrong impression?
    He is behaving very much like a buck. Even with trimming he keeps growing horns with a blood supply, he is getting a "mane" and a beard, he sprays urine all over his front legs and face and is constantly mounting the other boys as well as getting frisky with one of my daughters.
    Wondering what could be going on with him if indeed both testicles were removed? Let me know if you've heard of this before with a wether and if you have any advice on what I should do?

    Thank you!


    Here is the reply from the breeder (I am not including names at this point):

    "Hi Nicole, The vet removed the undescended testicle as well as the descended. Sometimes, with an undescended testicle, it can be difficult to ensure that all of the material is removed. So there is a possibility that he is producing more testosterone than is normal for a wether.. No mixup of communication...I watched her when she removed them and related it accurately to you.

    some wethers do behave more like a buck than others. as far as the horns needing additional work, that was a problem with the original disbudding not necessarily with any 'buckiness"...it is very difficult to get all the horn material on the bucklings and scurs are not uncommon. When scurs "arise' we advise people to simply trim the scurs on a monthly basis/and/or trim them when you trim their hooves. it only takes a few minutes and does keep the scurs down...quite often the scurs will be knocked off with headbutting games with the other goats...sometimes they don't grow back..and sometimes they do.

    Mounting behavior is seen in wethers with wethers, bucks with bucks and even does with does and of course any combination thereof---its more a goat thing than just specifically a "male goat" thing, however, even my full males/bucks do not bother people with such behavior. if your daughter has played with him as a baby...he may simply be replaying those games thinking it is ok and welcome...just as a bigger boy its not so much fun for us. You might carry a water bottle and when he does something objectionable to you or your daughter give him a good hearty squirt...usually quit effective,
    If you find the behavior untolerable the only recommendation I can make is that you find another home for him/or both of them. wish I had something else to suggest."

    My reply:

    "I don't mind any of his behaviors other than the urine spraying. There is definitely a testosterone issue going on.
    Can you give me the vets information please? I would like to get a copy of the records for him if possible so I can show my vet where and how the undescended testicle was removed especially if he has to go back in and look for remaining tissue. We are going to do a testosterone level check as well once we get the info from your vet.
    Thank you so much for your help, I appreciate it!"

    She emailed me back with the vet name and number, I was able to find an email address for the vet and went that route as I have all the info saved and easy to pass on to my vet.

    Here is what the vet emailed to me:

    "Hi Nicole. I remember the procedure well. I actually still have the "testicle" saved in a formalin jar. That apparently was not a testicle. I was very not-confident that I had gotten all of the testicle and if he is having buck-like behavior, almost certainly did not. My apologies. Sharon and I both knew there was a possibility that the testicle may not have been removed but were hoping to give the goat a chance.

    Here were my notes from that day:
    L testicle decended, but R not palpable. Urethra located, and what seems to be gubernaculum attached inside scrotum. Traction applied to gubernaculum until a tiny testicular structure removed and excised. It seems as if vas deferens has been removed as well, and testicle structure is compatible with testicle on cut surface, although epididymus cannot be found. Without histo on the structure removed, it is impossible to know if the structure removed is indeed absolutely the retained testicle. Saved in formalin for eval if desired.
    In addition, there was a fair amount of trauma to the penis/urethra during exploration. Resflor given for both anti-inflammatory effects and for infection prevention. Owner to monitor carefully for successful urination."

    Now, had the breeder been upfront about this I would have had the tissue sample sent to a lab for verification. I work for a small animal vet it wouldn't have cost me much other than the lab fee. She had the procedure done 2 days before I picked him up. Never mentioned a word to me about the trauma to his urethra and that I should perhaps keep an eye on things. Also had she mentioned the undescended testicle prior to me coming to pick him up I may have asked to select a different goat that had been 100% castrated.

    Currently I'm having the vet mail me the sample (thank God she saved it), and will run that as well as a blood test for testosterone levels. Should it come back that the testicle is still in there I'm looking at paying between $100-$300 for the procedure depending on how easy or difficult it is to remove and that's on top of the blood & tissue samples being sent off to the lab. (This is not the vet I work for as mine only does small animal) Is it out of line to ask the breeder to reimburse me the cost of the surgery if he should need one?

    Also, with a one testicle goat (half a buck? I can call him fiddy cent I guess) is his behavior (again, mostly concerned about the urine spraying) going to worsen as he matures?
    Trying to figure out if I leave him as is what the issues may be and what risks if any there are in searching for the missing testicle. This is my 10 year old daughters goat and she would be heartbroken (as would the rest of the family) if anything happened to him.

    There, I think I'm done...just really unsure as to how to proceed and if I should contact the breeder further or be done with her altogether. Thank you!!

  2. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator

    You can always ask the breeder, but more than likely she will not want to put out the money. Usually when you sell a goat, you sell as is, and make no guarantees once they leave the farm. So technically she is in the right to not want to do anything more. She should have told you everything the vet told her and even given you the sample so it is hard to say. I would probably chalk it up to lesson learned and just not go back to that breeder again for any future sales.

    If he has a testicle left, he will continue to be bucky and they do get smellier as they get older. So if you don't want him to smell, you will probably need to further investigate it.

  3. audrey

    audrey New Member

    Jul 17, 2012
    Lebanon, Oregon
    If you are not attached to the goat, I would ask the breeder to take him back and replace him with a true wether. If she doesnt have any, I think you are entitled to a full refund, because clearly you did NOT purchase what you thought you were.
  4. lottsagoats

    lottsagoats Junior Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Middle Maine
    Liability varies from state to state. She should have been up front with you about his surgery, and about the vets doubts as to whether he was fully castrated or not. Because of the trauma mentioned, she definitely should have mentioned it to you because he could have died and you would not have known why. It sounds like either she does not know what she is talking about or she was trying to cover up that he might still be a buck and that the surgery was more extensive that she led you to believe.

    You can talk to a lawyer about her liability and take her to small claims court. Or you can discuss this with your vet and have him/her discuss it with the vet who did the surgery and then take her to small claims court yourself.

    Personally, I think she knew what she was doing and got caught. If he is a partial buck, he will get bigger, smellier and more bucky as he gets older. He could become dangerous to your daughter.
  5. TDG-Farms

    TDG-Farms Dave (TDG Farms) S.E. Washington State

    Jul 12, 2013
    Ok, this breeder is either lying OR just kinda retarded. There can be no production of testosterone in a male body without the testies to receive Gonadotrophins. Which in turn cause the testies to produce Leydig cells to produce testosterone IN THE TESTICLES for boys and in the ovaries in females. So I would email the breeder back and inform her you are going to have a vet come out and inspect the animal. And if he finds that there is still a testy there, then you are going to need a refund for the purchase and for the vet. Unless she just wants to refund you the money for the purchase now.

    Also, horn growth is directly effected by testosterone. Castrated males horns grow fractionally as much as if the buck was still intact.
  6. NubianFan

    NubianFan New Member

    Jun 2, 2013
    From what the vet told you, I absolutely believe she knew that there was a good chance he wasn't fully castrated and was just trying to get him off her hands as soon as possible. She knew the vet was uncertain if she got it all, she knew there was damage done to the goat and didn't disclose even THAT so you could provide proper care. I have very little doubt she intentionally withheld all of that information. Here is the thing though, there is very little likelihood she will pay you anything for another procedure, you daughter is attached, so you really can't make her take him back without trauma to your daughter. I fear you may have to just eat the extra money and fix him the best you can. Rehoming him would even be difficult because who wants a wether that acts like a buck or a buck that can't breed. If your daughter wasn't attached I would make her take him back, but since she is, you have to weigh your options.
  7. ptgoats45

    ptgoats45 Goat Girl

    Nov 28, 2011
    NE Oklahoma
    I agree, wethers grow horns more like does do, not like a buck. If you can have it done, see if the vet can ultrasound him. I know with horses they can ultrasound them to find the other testicle so that when they do the surgery they have a better idea of where it is. The breeder should not have sold him to you until she knew that he was properly castrated, especially since the procedure can be very expensive. I would also contact the vet that did it and see if she would be willing to do the surgery to remove the remaining testicle at a discounted rate since she didn't do it properly to begin with. I honestly can't believe that that vet wouldn't be able to tell if what she removed was or was not a testicle... Testicles aren't just tissue, when the skin (outer layer) is removed the "meat" looks a lot like a brain, except more brownish colored.

    If he was sterile, he would make a good "teaser" buck.
  8. goatiegirl

    goatiegirl Junior Member

    Jan 7, 2013
    I agree with Audrey. I would try to work it out with the breeder before getting lawyers and courts involved.
    Since you have the vet info, I would copy it and give it to her showing that the vet was not as sure as she thought he was. Then ask for a refund or another goat.
    If you are attached and want to keep the goat, I think you will probably have to pay for the surgery yourself.
    If she took the goat back, she would more than likely not have the surgery done and maybe send him to freezer camp or auction???
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  9. nbelval

    nbelval New Member

    Aug 29, 2013
    I had sent a reply last night but I don't see it here.
    So I'll try to remember what I wrote.

    He belongs to my 10 year old daughter who loves him very much so he won't be leaving and we will definitely be getting the surgery done.

    I asked the vet if she would be willing to perform the surgery and this is her reply:
    Hi Nicole. It would be best if I chatted with your vet. If (s)he wishes to do the surgery, then histo of the testicle is the most appropriate thing. And I should submit it to Cornell. I am not set up to put your goat on inhalent anesthesia and do an abdominal exploratory, which is what is required for removal of a cyrptorchid testicle. Sometimes a small animal vet is a better person to do this surgery, with a large animal person running anesthesia. It is a difficult and complicated procedure, often, which is why we tried the best we could in the field. I have no reason to believe that I could do better second time around in the field and doubt that another field surgeon will want to have a go either.
  10. nbelval

    nbelval New Member

    Aug 29, 2013
    So that options out. I'm going to attempt to get the breeder to pay something, either the purchase price of the goat or half the surgery. Which will be roughly the same amount. It's not so much the money it's the fact that I was lied to and valuable information was withheld from me.
    I had bought three at the same time and one was coughing when we got him home. Took him to the vet and he had pneumonia he passed away a few days later even with aggressive treatment. The vet said he felt there was something "insidious" going on internally that we couldn't see. Makes me wonder now if there was any info on that goat that she didn't tell me about!!
  11. Di

    Di Crazy Goat Lady

    Jan 29, 2008
    central PA
    You got a "crypt orchid" AND a kid with pneumonia? Well, that was...I'm at a loss for words...unbelievable. That seller should either replace both goats or refund your money. SHE is the one to take the loss here. IF she wants her reputation intact, that is. I have many repeat clients and referrals from happy clients. And, I guard that reputation well. As breeders we should never sell a kid that is questionable for any reason. I have asked folks to wait on "pick ups" if the kid is not perfectly healthy. People are very willing to wait if there is a problem.

    Shame on her, and if you would please tell us who this is, it will help the next person from this sort of heartache.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  12. NyGoatMom

    NyGoatMom Shady Acre Homestead

    Boy, that's tough. I would either chalk it up to a loss (if she refuses to pay) and personally, i would have him processed....what if you explain it to your daughter, and why it needs to be done and get her another? I would worry he will become hard to handle in rut season due to urges and no outlet...

    Hope you find a good solution....good luck!
  13. Di

    Di Crazy Goat Lady

    Jan 29, 2008
    central PA
    Also, he may continue to do some of those "bucky" things after the surgery, anyway, since he already knows the "behavior".
  14. NubianFan

    NubianFan New Member

    Jun 2, 2013
    Gosh I hadn't thought of this but it is a good point. You may have to consider getting rid of him, and explaining to your daughter no matter how hard that might be. I sure wouldn't want him hurting her with his behavior.
  15. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator

    He may do it, he may not. I would give him a chance since your daughter is attached. He was always going to be a pet so different from some of us who strictly have animals that must contribute. You have to decide what is the best route for you to go. Hopefully the vet can take care of the problem and you will have a happy daughter.
  16. Goat Mom

    Goat Mom New Member

    May 1, 2012
    I was in a similar situation with my wether. They "missed one" when they banded him and also did a terrible job on disbudding. It became obvious that he still had a testicle when he started acting bucky a couple months after I got him. Fortunately for us, it was easily removed, but I just wanted to reassure you that his bucky behaviors went completely away once that was done.

    The horns are a whole other subject. He ended up with one completely normal horn and one scur. We're looking at removal this fall, which sounds complicated and painful. Not what I really want to put him through, but he's using it far too often on my doe for me to leave things as they are.

    Good luck with your goats. I hope things aren't too costly for you.
  17. NubianFan

    NubianFan New Member

    Jun 2, 2013
    I agree I would give him the surgery and the chance, but if the aggression does last then it would be time to make hard decisions.
  18. nbelval

    nbelval New Member

    Aug 29, 2013
    We are definitely doing the surgery and see how it goes. He's not aggressive at this point, just spraying pee everywhere, sticking his equipment in his mouth and the mounting which they all do to each other, he just does it with an erection
    So currently I'm awaiting the vet who did the initial procedure to release the tissue she removed to my vet so we can send it to a lab for evaluation. Then we will schedule to surgery once we have confirmation that it is not a testicle. Honestly I don't know why they can't tell by dissecting it a bit. Although my vet wanted to look at it first, he thinks she may have removed a lymph node!
    Thanks for all the input everyone, I am going to request that she refund the purchase price of $125 and if she is not willing than I will go after the full surgery amount in small claims court. Surgery is estimated at $200-$300 without complications, rechecks, lab work etc. so I don't think I'm asking for a lot from her. We shall see how it goes!
  19. nbelval

    nbelval New Member

    Aug 29, 2013
    Goatmom that's great news! While he's under sedation I'm going to have the horns removed. They are thin and almost flat, very odd looking. I did file down the edges so they aren't sharp but he could still do some damage if he wanted to I'm sure!
    So happy about the behavior changing though. Really if he would just stop spraying urine I can cope with the rest! :)
  20. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    The breeder should either offer you a replacement wether or a refund. I don't think they would be obligated to pay for the surgery costs.