2 yr old doe with knot--UPDATE 10/24/10

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by KFOWLER, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. KFOWLER

    KFOWLER New Member

    184
    Oct 5, 2010
    OKLAHOMA
    How large do CL knots get before they bust? I have only read that they get about golfball size before the skin busts open. I have a 2yr. old and noticed a knot on the side of her face towards the back of jawline...her ear covers it and I didn't see it until today. It looks like the size of about half a tennis ball, still has hair on it. She wouldn't let me get close enough to inspect it...I will have to have someone to help me hold her and look. I did put her in a separate pen from the rest of the herd until I figure this out. Any suggestions??


    I included a picture about 3 or 4 posts down.


    UPDATE!!!!--We went out to do the formalin injection and the knot was already draining. It is not thick and pasty like CL has been described but more of a white liquid pus. Still has hair on the knot.
     
  2. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    lance it adn send the gunk to be tested for CL
     

  3. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    I have to agree with Stacey.... :thumb:
     
  4. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    Be really careful if you lance it. Make sure you get it all in like a towel, rag or something and do not let it hit the ground.

    If you can get a picture of it and where it is located at.

    Good Luck
     
  5. KFOWLER

    KFOWLER New Member

    184
    Oct 5, 2010
    OKLAHOMA
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    I will try to get a pic but her ear covers it and makes it hard to see...she's kinda shy and everytime I try to hold her ear up she pulls her head. It's on the jawline toward the back of her face kindof behind and under the ear.
     
  6. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    Hang on a sec.. You say it's on "the side of her face towards the back of jawline...her ear covers it..." Does that mean it's on her *cheek*, perhaps along the line where her molars meet?

    If so, I'm not sure I'd lance it because it could be a simple matter of her having bitten her cheek. Happens a lot, and usually an abcess like that will just up and disappear one day, having ruptured inward.

    I know that sounds gross -- and I'm sure it is, if you're the goat -- but I'd frankly rather have a non-infectious abscess rupture inward and not have to deal with an external wound, let alone go to the trouble of lancing it.

    Plus, there's also the possibility of it being an impacted salivary gland, and my understanding is that you don't want to lance those out of concern for damaging the gland. I've no real-world experience with those, though...only with bitten cheeks, which I've seen quite often.

    If the abscess is behind or under the jawline, that's when I'd suspect CL. I don't even know that I'd bother to send anything off -- I'd just accept that it's CL. In that case, I'd quarantine and lance her, burn anything that touched the exudate, keep her isolated until she's completely healed, then sell her to someone who doesn't care about CL.

    A picture of where this lump is located would be helpful. :)
     
  7. KFOWLER

    KFOWLER New Member

    184
    Oct 5, 2010
    OKLAHOMA
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    I hope this works...here is the picture of the knot.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    OK, that's *not* a cheekbite.. Definitely looks like CL to me. :(
     
  9. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    I'd definitely lance it and send it in for testing.... that looks very uncomfortable...
    or have a vet do it so it doesn't contaminate your ground...in case it is CL :(
     
  10. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    I'd have her tested..asap. If she does have it then I would have your other goats tested (blood test) any that come up negative should be vaccinated, then make sure to either mark that they've been vaccinated on their papers or any medical records that you keep in case you sell them down the road.

    I also have to seriously disagree with the post about healing her up and selling her if she does have CL. I would euthanize any goat with CL.... too much risk of spreading. Internal abscess's can rupture and something as simple as a cough can spread the disease. That would be pretty harsh to do to someone else's herd and possible livelihood.

    Hopefully, it is just an abscess from hay or a bite or something. :(
     
  11. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    I mentioned selling her, but to someone who doesn't care about CL.. So long as there's disclosure and the other party doesn't mind that it's a CL+ goat, I don't see a problem with selling her.

    And that's not to mention the possibility of running her through a salebarn where buyers more or less *oughtta* know the animal they're about to buy is probably someone else's problem.. If killing her seems right anyway, well...slaughter nannies around here are bringing somewhere around $0.75-$0.80/lb, live weight.. No way to know the OP's financial situation, but if it's anything like *everybody else's that I know of* (lol) an extra $100 might come in handy.

    All I'm saying is that coming up with a CL+ goat shouldn't necessarily mean the owner loses their investment in the animal, especially if it's still marketable...which a CL+ meat goat is.

    That's all. :)
     
  12. KFOWLER

    KFOWLER New Member

    184
    Oct 5, 2010
    OKLAHOMA
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    I can't stand the thought of killing her...she was my first "kid" that I actually helped deliver...She was born in Dec. '08 and it was so cold outside that I brought her into my house an she slept in the tub!!! Would have never thought I would ever do that...but I did. If she does have CL is there anything that can be done?? I have read on the internet that a formalin injection can be put in the knot and it will cause it to dry up and fall off...just not real sure about that method. Has anybody ever used it??
    If I don't get rid of her though will this spread to the rest of my herd??
     
  13. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    As for the formalin...I've known people who do it, and I've read about people doing it, and everybody seems to say it works pretty well at turning the contents of a CL knot into a big sterile hockey puck. The thing is, it only works for *that particular knot,* so the next one that pops up will require the same thing.. And the next, and the next, and the next. It's not a cure -- it's just somewhat helpful in preventing the spread.

    As for whether or not it will spread if you leave it untreated, YES. It's **highly** contagious. There are vaccines out there, though, that have proven to be about 80% effective against the disease. The one most commonly used in goats is Case-Bac, though it's a sheep vaccine. I know of at least one person who has CL+ goats running with Case-Bac vaccinated goats, and they haven't had a *new* case of CL in years. When one of their CL+ does pops a knot, they quarantine, lance, flush, and keep the goat quarantined until the wound heals over...then they turn it back out with the vaccinated herd.

    FWIW, I can totally understand not wanting to get rid of her if she was a special project baby.. I have several of those myself whom I couldn't imagine slaughtering, sooo....you'll get no criticism from me if you decide to keep her. If you do, though, *definitely* vaccinate the rest of your herd and make sure you keep a close eye on her and always have a place to quarantine her when she develops a knot.

    Bear in mind, though, that with her only being 2 years of age...you're potentially looking at having to do this for the next 8-10 years, or perhaps longer. If it were me -- even if this was one of my project babies -- I'd seriously consider the idea of sending her to be with another CL+ herd where she'd be looked after properly.

    I hate this for ya. :(
     
  14. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    Cl is a very serious disease and can cause an extreme amount of heart ache as well as $ if you ever find yourself in the dilemma you are in KFOWLER. You are the only one that can make a decision about your herd, gathering as much info as you can on it is best but when it comes to deciding wether or not to cull, it's your choice.
    I will say though that to better prepare yourself it would be best to have that lump aspirated and sent for analysis, this way you will know for sure wether the risk is worth taking for your entire herd.

    If you do end up getting it tested and it does turn out to be Cl, there is a very high risk that your entire herd will contract it.... Yes, you can keep her away from the others and get her a wether buddy BUT you will need to follow extreme biological precautions every time you are around her and her premises in order to protect the others, also, you would need to be a responsible goat breeder and tell anyone who enters your property and has goats or are thinking of getting goats that you have Cl on your property, this as well as the well being of the infected goat is the main reason why most will cull, I also would go that route as it is a heartbreaking thing to put a goat through the pain of having every abcess lanced and thoroughly cleaned.
    I would seriously think of having her checked and tested for Cl before you decide anything, the lab services may be limited depending on where you are located but you may be able to contact any vet and ask. :hug:
     
  15. KFOWLER

    KFOWLER New Member

    184
    Oct 5, 2010
    OKLAHOMA
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    Do u know if the Case-bac is safe for pregnant or lactating does??
     
  16. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    I'm not positive about that but you may be able to find out from the manufacturer... Colorado Serum Company, they manufacture Case-Bac
    http://www.colorado-serum.com/csc_home.html
    If you go to the purchase page and put Case Bac into the search area it will show the price per dose
     
  17. farmergal

    farmergal New Member

    519
    Jun 19, 2009
    Northern California
    Re: 2 yr old doe with knot

    I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet or not but if you go ahead and lance it yourself and have it tested for CL, you should *definitely* isolate the goat from everyone else. Put her in a place where other goats will never go (like the chicken yard or something). The abscess will/should continue to drain for over a week, and any of the pus draining out is highly contagious.

    I just went through a CL scare with one of my goats -- the location was the same as yours but not nearly as big. According to my goat vet the best way to treat a mystery abscess is to slice it and then flush it out thoroughly with betadine (the solution, not the scrub -- if you don't have betadine solution iodine will work) every day. You can use a syringe without the needle to do the poking and flushing. This means that sometimes you'll have to break open the abscess again because it will try to close up on its own... don't let it close up until it's nice and flat and isn't producing any more pus. (I found that it helped to squeeze the pus out first, and then flush it. Yep. It's as gross as it sounds.)

    And until you know for a FACT that it isn't CL, don't let her near any other goats! Not all abscesses are CL, even if they're in a CL location... luckily, mine wasn't CL!