2008 Deaths ... WHY ... and now WHAT ?

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Julie, Feb 8, 2009.

  1. Julie

    Julie New Member

    464
    Oct 5, 2007
    Southern PA
    Ok. As I've mentioned before ... I had a really tough year in 2008 with my animals. I lost alot of goats, and I want to do everything I can to prevent any issues for this year. I've been talking to some close friends of mine online about these issues, and they've helped me deal with my grief and have given recommendations to me. But now I'm ready to tell my experiences to everyone and ask for your personal opinions as well. I just want to take into consideration what everyone has to say and try to figure out exactly what went wrong, and how to prevent it from happening again !

    So ... here's how things happened ....
    Spring 2008 - everything was going great. I had increased my herd by buying goats here and there, and my does had babies, and long story short ... I was up to 13 goats (I think I counted that right). I sold a few of them, and by the end of the summer had LOST 5 kids (Lily, Cotton Candy, Black Jack, Cookie & Bambi) (PLUS a few saanen kids that I had rescued) and had the vet out to see what the world was going on ! He did a necropsy (sp?) on Bambi and plus ran a fecal on Cookie (who was still alive the day here was here ... she died later that night) and he confirmed that they had Coccidiosis. So his recommendation was Corrid. Which I did use to treat the entire herd then.
    Things were ok then for a short while. Then the beginning of winter I lost Presto (a kid I purchased from Stacey that was registered and I had high hopes for). He had NO sings or symptons of any illness that I seen prior to his death. Unless I just completely MISSED them. But I didn't see anything wrong with him and then one day I went down and he was dead. The kids that that died during summer when I had the vet out ... they all had symptons with scours, etc. .. I KNEW they were sick. Presto ... no signs.
    Then not long ago (in December) I lost Goliath (a 2 yr old Pygmy/Nigerian Buck). No Symptons again. However, he has a different story. His door to his pen broke off and it was REALLY cold out (with cold warnings out on the news ... telling everyone to stay in doors, etc.) and although he was inside his pen which was inside the barn ... with his door being off the wind could blow straight in on him. The next morning is when I found him dead. I thought it was due to the very cold temps and his door that broke off. But a friend of mine said that they had a hard time beleiving just cold would kill him ... because of what goats can "live through." He was healthy and hadn't had any problems/issues/symptons prior to his death. His water was froze to, but so was everyone elses until I thawed it out (again ... this is something that is a daily thing for me in winter of course). So I don't think he got dehydrated, because then I would've had issues with all of them who's water froze. And I didn't. Just him.

    So since Goliath died ... I haven't had any issues with any of my other goats. That put me down to 5 goats ... Daisy, Oreo, Nanny, Tanzy and Moby. I haven't had any issues with anyone since. But I'm concerned for future issues. My kidding season will be starting really soon ... in march. And I don't want to loose anyone for sure ! So I want to do what I can to prevent any problems/issues. I just am unsure what has happened here. I mean, I KNOW I had cocci here ... well, HAVE cocci ... since it's ALWAYS in your soil. But what about Presto and Goliath ? What was the deal with them ? A friend of mine mentioned "silent pnuemonia" ... could it be ? Or is it just the cocci. But if it WAS the cocci ... why did Presto and Goliath die with NO symptons ?? I'm confused and concerned. I don't want to loose ANY MORE goats ! And I want my kids to be safe and healthy to.

    I ordered some Pastuerella (pnuemonia) vaccine. I was planning on vaccinated everyone with that just for precaution. I've never used it before, and don't know much at all about it ... just that a good goat friend recommended it to me ... JUST IN CASE I have been dealing with silent pnuemonia. But I also want to prevent a cocci outbreak from happening again, so I would like to take preventative measures for that as well. Another friend of mine recommended that I purchase and treat with Di-Mothex to prevent a cocci outbreak from occuring. When I looked on jeffers livestock, the Di-Mothex said it is for numerous things including cocci treatment ... but ALSO treatment for bacterial pnuemonia. I asked her if the di-mothex would contradict the pastuerella (pneumonia) vaccine .. or if I'd have any issues giving BOTH ... and she wasnt' sure.

    So my questions are to you ...
    1.Does anyone have any additional input on what I may have dealt with here ?
    2.Has anyone ever given the Pastuerella (pneumonia) vaccine for preventative measure ?
    3.Has anyone used the Di-Mothex ?
    4.Does anyone know if I can use the Pastuerella vaccine and the Di-Mothex at the same time ?
    5.Any other ideas or suggestions ?
     
  2. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Julie,

    I think that it is wonderful that you are asking for more help in this matter :wink:

    I have told you what I would do if it was my herd, but hopefully some with more knowledge / ideas can also help you with this.

    I think you are doing the right thing and there are so many out here that can help you.
     

  3. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    There is a really good thread in the "Goat Sense 101" section on pasturella. I don't think you should treat as a preventative but find out for sure if your goats have this. This is done by taking in a nasal swab, only way to tell. It very likely could have been pasturella for the two goats lost recently.

    Cocci, I may be wrong, but sometimes there can be deaths with no symptoms? I am probably wrong on that one, but with goats, I guess anything is possible. :roll: They're always looking for some way to trip us up. ;)

    Not sure on the Di-Methoxx contradicting the pasturella vaccine but it is important to find out if your goats have it for sure. If they do, I believe you start with a low-grade antibiotic until their immune system has built up enough, then vaccinate. But if your goats come back negative, then you could just give the vaccine for good measure.

    I use Di-Methoxx for cocci prevention, mainly out at the farm. We've never had a problem w/ it in town, well, yet that is. It is a really good preventative for the cocci.
     
  4. trob1

    trob1 New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Middle TN
    Pasturella pneumonia vaccine is a great way to prevent the illness and I highly recommend it. the thing with it is that it is silent so most of the times you never know anything is wrong till the goat is dead. The vaccine is just that a vaccine and di-methoxx will not interfere with its effectiveness but please only vaccinate healthy animals. If they are showing any sighs of pasturella like chronic runny nose please treat them first and then wait till they are healthy to vaccinate.

    Cocci prevention is a must exspecally if you do not have alot of acreage for your goats. Di-methoxx is a good choice and should be started when the kids turn one month old and done monthly till they are sold or are eating enough medicated pellets to prevent cocci outbreaks. Now that you have had a problem I highly recommend that your does be put on medicated feed now and kept on it till they wean their kids. Adults will shed cocci and the kids arent immune to it so they get it and get sick. By putting the adults on it now you lower your cocci numbers on your grounds in time before the kids come. I would do this method at least for 2 years or more to lower the numbers being shed by the adults. You are gonna have to be strong and put aside the fact that there are gonna be alot of people who throw their noses up at medicated feed and putting alot of as they say (chemicals into your animals) to insure that your herd is healthy. Once you have brought in an animal full of cocci or worms on your land you have to take lots of measure to rid your farm of them. Find a feed like I have found that has a high enough level of cocci prevention in it that they only recommend 1 lb of feed 100 lbs of animal weight. some recommend as much feed as 1lb per 50lbs of animal and that is just too much feed to try to get into an animal. Be sure to give the recommend amounts and don't skimp. I like Co-op brand with deccoxx or moninsin but find one and stick with it. Good luck and I hope for a great year for you.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria New Member

    461
    Dec 20, 2008
    Vernonia, Oregon
    Bless your heart for all your losSES, I am so sorry for your losses!!

    I had an old goat that had pasturella. I put her down two weeks ago, man it was hard.
    I never treated with the vaccine as my boss/vet reccomended I thought it wasn't needed. Until my babies got sick, they were real sick. The Doc reccomends doing a vaccine before they kid, then a shot after the babies are born. She is actually doing more reserch for me on this subject, because neither of us understand it. We have had several cases of coccidia where the goat shows no signs what so ever, not even diarrhea. They just die, so it could very well be that is what killed your goats, it would be my guess.
    I use Albon and decoxx daily, but I will be switching to another product as soon as I run out, and do more reserch on the products available.
    All my babies from now on will be getting the parturella vaccine, also my adult goats will be getting it as well.
    I sure hope this helps and I will post what new info I get..
    Take good care!
     
  6. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    I used medicated feed on my kids last year and Albon when needed.

    I don't feed medicated feed to my milkers.
     
  7. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Julie, I know this had to take alot for you to get this out in the open and I am sure that your goats will forever be greatful to you should you take the advice given. As was mentioned, once you have a case of cocci, no matter if it is one goat or twenty, you will be fighting a losing battle if you do minimal or nothing as far as tryin to erradicate it.

    I never had a problem with cocci til I brought Chief home.....never in a million years would I have thot that this could be a problem. He was treated, therefore I figured all was well....unil last spring, I had just one doeling come down with an overload...and per my vets instruction all kids were monitered and treated if needed. This little doe is now a "big" girl and outweighs her sister by almost 10 pounds.

    Sometimes the funds are tight when it comes to the "extra's" involving goats.....but when it puts a hole in your wallet due to the losses, it's best to try and put that extra effort into saving up for the meds needed to treat. I don't think any of us like to put "chemicals" into otherwise healthy animals but if it's going to save their life in the long run, it is the best thing to do.....as far as the silent peumonia goes, I really can't give much on that as I've never dealt with it....it's entirely possible that the ones you lost were already compromised and had weak immune systems due to the cocci that it very well could have been the pneumonia that killed them. IMO...as with ANY drug, I wouldn't want to put too much at one time into their systems, maybe give the vaccine and wait a week to start the cocci meds.

    I will tell you what my vet told me to do....she said to add DECCOX to the loose minerals for ALL does 2 months before freshening...to help the does to not be shedding cocci before the kids arrive.....now, due to the fact that I breed for milk production, that is not a good choice for me, so I will be using the sulmet solution here in another week as a daily dose to each doe....except my current milker and hope that she does not cause an issue by not being treated.
    Once you have one outbreak you will continuously be fighting to control it, as there is nothing as far as chemicals that will get rid of it...steady sunlight and totally dry conditions and having the affected areas goat free for a number of years is the only thing that will get rid of it.

    Having a good goat smart vet to work with is a plus...and I am thankful that I found Dr. Hess when I did....Her charge for fecals was minimal and told me to use ivermectin during the spring/wet months to control the barber pole that was found in fecals...so far so good.

    I'm pretty sure you had said that you feed DuMor dairy pellets, TSC also carries their brand of medicated feed..with DECCOXX called Sheep and Goat DQ...You will need to provide a good goat mineral with copper in it as this feed has no copper...and if you do use this feed you will need to stop giving it to your milkers 2 weeks before you want to consume the milk....and as added precaution you may sill want to treat the kids individually to be sure they are getting the amount of the med they need. Also something else I have looked into which may benefit you even more, Blue Seal makes a feed called Meat Goat Grower that is also medicated...it would be a good one for any bucks you have as it also has ammonium chloride.....both for prevention. It seems as though you have been dealt an awful hand, but with an open mind and perseverence you can beat this AND save quite a few lives... it is a sad thing to lose babies over something that can be prevented...thankfully I haven't dealt with that and plan to not ever do so, my order is going in to Jeffers tomorrow so I know I am going to be putting every effort into keeping this years kids safe and healthy.

    Sorry so long winded but I truly hope I had some useful info to share. :hug:
     
  8. Julie

    Julie New Member

    464
    Oct 5, 2007
    Southern PA
    Thanks everyone who replied. I placed my order (on jeffers livestock) for Pastuerella (pnuemonia) vaccine, as well as the Di-Methox powder. Hopefully this prevents any major issues for this year (oh I'm hoping).

    Anyway, thanks again to everyone. If I have any further questions about anything once I receive my order, I'll post it/them. :)

    Thanks ! :stars:
     
  9. Julie

    Julie New Member

    464
    Oct 5, 2007
    Southern PA
    NEW ~ TORN LIGAMENT ?? 2008 Deaths ... WHY ... and now WHAT

    Since we can't make "new posts" currently on the board, and I really want to get this posted, I figured I'd just make a reply to my post about all my issues. Since now I have a new issue :oops:

    My NEW buck who I only had for 1 week now has a problem with his ankle. I first noticed the problem yesterday, he was just standing around and didn't seem to want to move around much. I got a closer look and realized he was standing on the ball of his ankle with his hoof turned completely under. as if it were broke or something. I felt it and didn't feel anything "out of place" and it wasn't swollen or warm, etc.
    I talked to some friends online and got their opinions, plus called my vet and got his opinion. He doesn't think it's a break because I don't feel anything out of place and he also said that when I'd straighten it there would most likely be some "crunching" ... which there isn't. Plus he doesn't appear to be in alot of pain from it, if it were broken he probably would be in pain and not want to put any pressure on it.

    When he walks, he limps, when he stands, he stands on the front ball of his ankle.

    Here's some video clips. I got thiamine for him (vet thought perhaps early stages of polio) and I splinted him.
    I have pictures as well, but hubby wants the computer, so for now I'll add the videos and will come back after he gets off here to add the pics.

    [​IMG]

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  10. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Julie,

    There is definately something going on with that hoof and I really would have the vet take a look at him. By the videos, he is acting like he is in pain with that leg.

    I hope that you are able to find out what is wrong and he gets better soon.
     
  11. Julie

    Julie New Member

    464
    Oct 5, 2007
    Southern PA
    Here's the best picture that I got ...
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Julie

    Julie New Member

    464
    Oct 5, 2007
    Southern PA
    as you can see, he would stand on it like that. Then he'd limp when he walked. When I extended it forward he didn't act like it hurt him. :shrug:
    Yet at the same time he obviously isn't "walking" on it.

    I dunno, but anyway just wanted to add that.
     
  13. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I would see how much it would be for you to take him to the vet. He really could use someone with profesional expertise to take a look at it.
     
  14. Deena

    Deena New Member

    75
    Jan 31, 2009
    North Carolina
    Julie my goodness it does seem rather odd I would expect to see swelling or heat if it were broken or sprained. I wonder if he had problems with contracted tendons? Is there any evidence of him bearing weight like this before?I would have the vet check him.
     
  15. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    Did you give him any shots after you got him? I had a doe that I gave pen G to in the leg and hit that nerve in their leg. She started walking like that a little while afterward so I splinted it to keep her from getting a sore on her leg until she walked right on it again.

    Is there any swelling along his back leg? To me this seems to be a nerve issue.
     
  16. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    He seems to be in pain with the way he is walking, and it seems in the last video that he is having problems with his entire rear, he's having difficulty keeping balance almost like his hips are weakened. The hoof being knuckled under like that is indicating some nerve damage. I personally would not balk at having a professional goat smart vet checking him out...xrays would rule out a break and possible show an injury to his lower spine.
     
  17. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Could even be pelvic ------
     
  18. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I know you were going to give everyone the pneumonia vaccine .... just checking because of what Ashely said
     
  19. Di

    Di Crazy Goat Lady

    Jan 29, 2008
    central PA
    Oh your poor little man! He's so cute. I too, think it looks like he's affected in both his back legs. Is he eating? In Polio they "star gaze" first, and go down pretty fast. Could he have fallen and hurt his back? I'd be researching what kind of anti-inflamitory you can give to goats...would that be Banamine? I'd get that in him asap.
     
  20. Julie

    Julie New Member

    464
    Oct 5, 2007
    Southern PA
    No I didn't give him any shots prior to this incident.

    I don't REALLY think it's polio (although I could be wrong) because I've seen polio symptons before and imo he does not have those symptons.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with his pelvis or hips, etc. ... although he may look funny in some of those videos, the main reason for that was probably that I just took some of those videos within minutes after putting his splint on. So he wasn't used to it and didn't know how to walk with it on or do anything. I haven't noticed any issues with any other part of his body ... just that leg/ankle.

    Anyway, I am not home right now, we've been gone all day and I'm typing this from my parent in law's home. Been busy the last couple of days and haven't been online hardly at all.

    So I am still trying to figure this out. And doing what I can for him. He doesn't seem to be "in a bad way" just can't use that leg. I've talked to my vet a couple times about it. When I get home tonight I'll see how he's doing again and figure out what to do next. I hate to spend the $$ for x-rays and everything else at the vet, especially since I've only had this buck for a week now, and I was hoping for an incident free 2009 ... ha ! yeah right. But anyway, I also want to be a good goat mommy, so I'm doing what I can, and will see how he's doing tonight and if a trip to the vet is a necessity.

    Gotta run ... thanks for the opinions !