4 week old buckling with issues...

Discussion in 'Goat Management' started by Ufoznbacon, Jan 14, 2011.

  1. Ufoznbacon

    Ufoznbacon New Member

    Jan 13, 2011
    I would like to introduce you all to Tubby and tell you about his troubles to see if you guys can give us any guidance.

    He was born on December 13th so that makes him exactly one month old today. He was a twin that momma wanted absolutely nothing to do with. Luckily my girlfriend was home and found him before it was too late. It was awful cold that day and I'm sure that he would not have lasted until I got home from work.

    We have had some days where everything has been fine and some when we didn't know if he would make it through the night. Most of those bad days were early on and he has been improving up until the last couple days when he started "coughing" and acting kind of funny throwing his head around and wiping his snout on things after every little drink off the bottle. We have been feeding him a mix that we got from a local goat farm made of eggs, heavy cream, dry milk and water and today it got so bad that he has hardly had a full bottle where he was devouring one and sometimes two at a time.

    I have read quite a few posts on here to try and find the answers that I am looking for and not had a lot of luck. Here is what I know; His temp is at 102.7 he is acting happy and healthy jumping and climbing around on the tub, he nibbles a little bit of hay and a tiny little amount of grain, he has one heck of a set of vocal chords. But he has this coughing thing that is keeping him from getting his belly full and he is also losing hair. Now I am not noticing any bald spots but he is losing lots of hair. Oh yeah, since this has started I have also noticed that he is grinding his teeth a lot and I have read two theories about the grinding thing, showing a response to pain and showing a response to hunger, I suspect he is hungry. One last thing that I looked into was an obstruction, I checked his mouth, making sure to keep free of them dangerous back teeth, and felt up and down his throat and felt nothing out of the ordinary.

    I am sure hoping you guys have some ideas for me to check into as I am running out of options and I know he can't go long eating this little or he will wither up.

    Thanks in advance.

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  2. ()relics

    ()relics New Member

    Dec 25, 2010
    Feeding bottle kids too much milk is far worse than feeding them not enough. Feedings that are too large can leave undigested milk in his stomach which make him a prime candidate for FKS. If I have bottle kids ,and I actually have 6 right now which is extremely odd, they get no more than 3 feedings per day. At a month old my kids would be getting 3x 16-18 oz feedings. They always have hay and pellets available to them to encourage them to fill their needs with feed not milk. By 2 months I have dropped them down to 2x feedings per day, 16-20 oz, and then by 2.5 months they only get 1x until they are around 3-3.5 months or until they are completely started on the pelleted ration. I only ever fed Vitamin D whole milk as I have found everything else to be too rich, of course after he gets colostrum and hopefully your little guy got his share or you are in for bigger problems.
    So your buckling...maybe back him off his bottle for a whole day, just to be sure he is fully digesting his stomach contents. Offer him all the hay and feed ration he wants, I would use a feed medicated with deconquinate or monensin to ward off the possibly stressed induce bout with coccidiosis. After a day of no bottles start him on a 3X per day routine. After he finishes his bottle pick him up or squeeze him or "burp" him to help him clear any milk left in his throat or lungs, possibly the cause of the cough. I would give him a shot of BoSE and give him access to a good goat formulated mineral. CD/T if he hasn't already had it and he should be back to good health before long.
    I raise boer goats so the amounts are based on what I would feed my kids, adjust as you see fit...I never force a kid to eat, if they don't want it they don't get it...as usually forcing it down them is worse....jmo...good luck with your kid.

  3. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Your little guy is just adorable. What is his stool like? Is he going to the bathroom normally? I really don't have much to add. Congratulations on your twins and I hope everything works out for you.

    Hi Relics.
  4. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Great advice relics :) And that little boy is just BEAUTIFUL! OMG I love his little face! and that expression in the mirror, priceless :) I sure hope he gets better and goes on to live a long and healthy life!
  5. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    I feed a bit differently even when I had large breed kids.
    I feed smaller amounts more often.

    So my question is: how much is in ech of those bottles? And how often are you offering them?

    When you say snott is it milk snott or nasal discharge?

    When he coughs is it only after eating or random?
  6. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA

    I also feed smaller amounts more often.... it is more natural as that is what their moms do.

    Does he sound congested when you listen to his chest???

    He is adorable by the way..... I hope he is alright.
  7. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Aww...very cute....I love that little face.... :love: :thumb:

    Stacey is asking some good questions there.... I am praying... that the little one.... will be OK.... :pray: :hug:
  8. Ufoznbacon

    Ufoznbacon New Member

    Jan 13, 2011
    Oh man guys thanks so much for all of the speedy replies.

    We have been feeding him 3 - 10 oz bottles a day of a mixture that a lady at a local goat farm recommends and man it has got to be rich. We decided to try the whole milk idea and I think you guys are right on that one. We also got new nipples and just opened up the hole a slight amount where the others had an x cut in them we only made a single little cut to open it up just a bit.

    In the first few days of bringing him in the house his stool was a mess, literally, it was runny and kind of yellow and got all over everything but after using some Pepto and watering his bottles down to avoid dehydration we got it under control pretty well. Then it got sort of pasty and I suspected he might be wormy so we dosed him with safeguard for goats and in a matter of two days he was making the pellets like none other. That was late last week and we have been doing really well until early this week when the coughing started.(at this point i think it was more of a choking that coughing) The coughing was only right after he would pull away from the nipple and not at any other time and then he would immediately wipe his little snout on whatever he could find that was close, be it the side of the tub, my hand the blanket we have for him, just whatever he could get to. BTW, when I mentioned him wiping his snout on things I meant his nose and mouth not snot, sorry about the Okie-speak, my bad, but that probably won't be the last time I use it as its all I've got to work with. :)

    Anyhow after getting home this evening with some regular milk and some new nipples we seem to be doing much better and for that I appreciate your advice. But with all of that said we still have a couple things to talk about.

    1) He is still shedding, not going bald by any means, yet, but definitely losing lots of hair mostly on his back towards his hind end. I have read on this site that it might be lice and to get some food grade diatomacious earth to put on him. If it were lice would I not be able to see them like human lice?

    2) I sure hope this doesn't turn into a doom and gloom thread when I say this but I need to know what to be on the lookout for if its going to get bad. Tubby never got a drop of anything from his momma, she had absolutely nothing to do with him. What I am trying to say is he never got any colostrum and when ()relics made his comment it sure kind of made me nervous. I realize that is where the kids get their initial boost for their immune system and all but if we keep him healthy to a reasonable age he should be fine right? Is there anything that we can do at this point? I saw colostrum at the vets office and the feed store should I get some for him or is it just simply too late?

    Thanks again folks.
  9. ()relics

    ()relics New Member

    Dec 25, 2010
    Ok so the method behind my madness...Sure a doe feeds her kids all day smaller amounts, but I don't have the time to be feeding 6 oz 5x per day.
    .....Secondly, when a doe raised a kid she teaches him to eat feed and hay by example. A bottle raised kid has no one to teach it...SO...I feed 3x per day larger amounts. The larger amounts of milk expand the stomach so the kid feels like it is hungry between feedings. Perfect opportunity to teach it to eat hay and pellets. The kid is hungry so it spend its time, between feedings, exploring its pen, searching for food because it is starved, although not really. Sooner or later the kid stumbles upon the feeder or the hay bunk, and because it is starved, mouths the contents, same as it has mouthed EVERYTHING in its reach, but realizes that this stuff tastes good. As He continues to return to sample the hay/feed, because he likes it, you have started to wean him. When you feed a kid more often he is "less hungry" and has no need to look for food so he doesn't, making him slower to wean and more stressed when he does, IMO... When I drop to 2 bottles per day, I usually drop the noontime bottle, I always go into their pen and dump even a small amount of feed into their feeder, again just to as a sugestion, around their usual "bottle time"....Kind of funny as the kids get older, as soon as they are finished with their bottles they all rush to the feeders to finish "filling up"...It must be said that I feed my bottle kids more/better than they need because if they are valuable enough to bottle feed , I want them to be the biggest kids in there "group"....I am not a bottle feeding expert, like some of my dairy goat friends, but I have been taught well...Left unsaid using this method your kid pens need to be SPOTLESS as he will try to eat anything laying around.
    ...and being the glutton for punishment...I am travelling to the eastern side of my state today to pick up 2 new bottle kids...just because the ones I have aren't keeping me busy enough...
  10. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    ok the coughing should stop if he is fed more often with that smaller hole nipple becasue he wont be trying to chug it down.

    Also the yellow stools were normal so thats nothing to worry about.

    once he passes 5 -6 weeks you know you are in the safe zone from missing the colostrum - kids can live without it but they struggle more.
  11. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    and ()relics I leave my bottle kids out with the herd -- they learn to be goats that way ;)

    as they get older I cut out bottles and up the amount of the bottles I do give (but only slightly). This weans them and by leaving them with the herd they learn goat behavior and I have bottle kids eating grain and hay at the same ages as the dam raised.

    I use to have the problem of teaching them to eat at 8 weeks now I dont once leaving them with the herd.
  12. ()relics

    ()relics New Member

    Dec 25, 2010
    Kind of cold here for newborn or motherless kids to be on the pasture with the herd. But everyone has their own methods that work best...just laying out My method.
  13. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    He is the cutest thing since puppies!!! oh he is just adorable!!

    On another note - definitely NO need to apologize for anything. We're all from different parts of life (geographic area's & goat life too)...so we all have different ways of thinking, different experiences, different educational ways, etc....
    BUT... we are all here to learn and teach and help... So, please, ask away!
    Anything at all that seems questionable... just come on over and ask us :thumb:
    My concerns in babies are:
    -- ANY signs of diarhea (the yellowy stuff was totally normal but from now on, it should be "pellets")
    -- any 'off' behavior, listlessness, lethargy, etc
    -- any cough's, chest congestion, snotty nose, runny eye's, etc
    -- not growing right, stunted looking growth, hunched up posture

    Those are always my first & foremost concerns for babies... just so you have a basis of things that should raise a 'flag'...

    Again - super adorable boy there! :love:
  14. Dreamchaser

    Dreamchaser New Member

    Oct 29, 2008
    Camp Verde, AZ
    I haven't read everyone else's replies. However, my first thought after reading this is that he might have a cleft pallet, from the symptoms you are posting. He might be choking a little bit and getting some milk in his lungs if he has this.

    It's a hole in the roof of his mouth that doesn't let him get a good suction when he is drinking his bottle. It allows him to get milk in his nose and lungs. Hope this makes sense.
  15. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    That crossed my mind to Dreamchaser....
  16. Lanailens

    Lanailens New Member

    Jan 14, 2011
    Thank you everyone for the multitude of information! You have given us some other things to consider that I personally had not thought of. Tubby is doing much better on the whole milk, and using nipples with a smaller hole. No one is addressing the hair loss issue, and I am hoping that lack of response is because it is a non issue in the whole scheme of things. Being the surrogate momma, as well as all of this being my first real learning experience with the animals, I am concerned. At first the hair loss was mainly on the top of his back, and hind quarters, not his belly. Now he actually has bald spots, and I can clearly see his pink little skin. I am the girlfriend, and new to the scene so to say. I do not have the experience ufoznbacon or anyone else has with regard to goats, so I am trying to learn as much as I can as quickly as possible. Otherwise, Tubby seems to be a very happy little kid, has bright, clear eyes, no runny nose, has good poos, is growing like a weed, starting to show interest in grain, and bouncing off the walls quite contentedly.
  17. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Sorry about that.... :doh:

    Hair loss could be mineral deficiency.... "copper"
    Does he get loose salts and minerals for goats with copper....?

    or could be lice...

    Do a fecal for worms and cocci....to see how he is there....
  18. ()relics

    ()relics New Member

    Dec 25, 2010
    ...Ok so I didn't want to say it earlier,because it doesn't apply to every kid, but the hairloss could very well be due to his lack of colostrum. Colostrum not only passes disease resistence to the kid but also provides him with essential fatty acid, amino acids, vitamins, and minerals...All of these things are necessary for the kids immune system AND his digestive system to get off to a good start. Without the essential fatty acids and amino acids a kid Might not be able to process certain minerals/vitamins/proteins thus leaving him lacking....Hairloss could be a syptom of this sort of inability to process "something" and therefore leaving the kid lacking....did you say you had gven him BoSE?