A Challenge Of Morals???

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by mommaB, Nov 9, 2010.

  1. So this is kind of a long story but I will try to make it short.

    I had my buck advertised for service, but the does MUST be tested before I would let anyone on or off my property.
    I had an inquery, and she agreed to have her does tested! Fabulous! I went and drew blood for her and we sent it in. Well one of her does came back CL +. So of course I said no way, no how.

    Here is the delema..........She called the gal whom she got the doe from and told her. At first the gal was all about having her herd tested, and wanted me to come draw for her. All of the sudden she changed her mind, and is planning to sell the buck that she has there, and her upcoming kids. The doe that tested positive came from the same place the buck(nigel) came from.
    OK just let me know if you change your mind.
    If you do sell Nigel, you REALLY should disclose that he could be CL positive. Or this same thing is going to happen to someone else. So are you keeping all of your kids? Cause same thing with them. You should disclose that they may be positive if you are going to sell them.
    The point of knowing is to help eliminate the disease so that people don't have to worry about it. If we knowingly sell animals that may be infected, it's not resposible, and it's not fair to the unknowing purchaser. Plus if you advertise that your herd is tested clean you can up the prices for the kids.
    And just so you know, you don't have to pay up front for the testing. the place (WADDL) will bill you.
    If you like you can tell the prospective purchaser you know someone that can draw and have him tested before he leaves your place. I would be more than happy to help.
    Keep in touch, and let me know what you decide

    This is the response I got:
    Im not really concerned with him being CL positive any more than I am that all other goats not tested are CL pos.....Any goat that isnt tested is a possible CL positive goat and people should know that. But Im sure she will be responsible in her info. I have sold kids for years and not had testing....and have never had CL on this place so, I figure if people want clean herds they will check what they buy. I dont think it comes from Nigel.....And I wont be surprised if Nellies next testing is negative. Its like the flu....you either get it or you dont....I take precautions, but there are no guarantees even IF you get your goats tested that it wont show up in the soil or thru the air.Unless you have a stainless steel barn and floors that you bleach daily..... So, for now I am going to know my herds appearance and do what I have dome for 30 yrs.....stay calm and keep them as healthy as I can. If I see signs of sickness I know what to do.....
    What happens with CL is people overreact and kill off herds and I dont think that is necessary.Thanx so much for your offer and I will pass that on and let you know if I change my mind.

    So would you post a buyer beware when it comes time to sell in the spring, or just keep your mouth shut???

    And I wouldn't name names in a buyer beware..........just try to educate people that there are diseases they should ask about.
  2. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    honestly she is right - anyone who doesnt test has the possibility to have CL so really its up to the buyers to be aware and test or have them tested before purchasing.

    one positive test isnt proof that her whole herd is CL positive, especially if she has been in goats 30 years and never had one with a CL abscess.

    how long did your friend have the doe before she came up CL positive? was it like 1 week or months?

  3. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I couldn't of said it better Stacey..... :wink: :thumb:
  4. She has had her over a year. The problem for me is...........if she has never tested, then she DOESN"T know if it's not in her herd. She is not the kind of person out checking for lumps, you can hardly get your hands on her goats so I don't know how she would know? And just because you don't SEE an abcess doesn't mean that it's not internal or that she just missed it?
    That is my other problem.......If she is selling to people who don't know squat about goats, how do they know to ask? I was a newbie a little over a year ago, and I had NO CLUE. Same with the ladies that purchased the positive doe? I got LUCKY and my first doe was negative and from there I have been very careful, and have tested my own.
    Anyhow I'm just kinda torn, I'm not out to tarnish anyone. I just think a responsible breeder should also educate to the best of thier knowledge.
  5. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator Supporting Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    I personally would stay out of it. That's her own business. ;)
  6. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    yes but its not proven that the doe your friend has that came up positive actually came to her positive. If the testing was done as soon as purchased or before purchased than you could say that she is possibly selling positive goats -- but a goat who has been away from her herd for so long and then tested positive cant be said that she got it from her previous herd. She could have gotten it through her new herd or other exposure.

    also its not our place to start spreading info that we cant back up with facts at the very least.

    I know I personally didnt know about CAE or CL or Johnes when first getting into goats and I two was 'lucky' 'blessed' or whatever you call it, but I dont go and tell people not to buy from those who dont test just becasue they are positive animals. And thats what you would be doing based on the facts you have presented here.

    Now if you do come across people interested in goats for the first time you can edjucate them on the diseases and encourage them to purchase from tested herds or to have their goats tested before purchasing. And let them make their decision on who to purchase from.

    Blasting an established herd will only make you look like a bad guy instead of someone who is interested in the welfare of goat herds.
  7. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Like Stacey... I purchased my first goats without knowledge of these diseases and it wasn't until last year that I had my herd tested...all are negative so I am very thankful for that.
    Knowing what you do would cause second thinking, I know that I would feel the same but in this case, the breeder basically was very nice about declining your offer, best way I think to deal with the moral dilemma would be to educate potential buyers of the benefits of testing and on the diseases themselves, bringing a breeder by name into it would not be good for your personal reputation as it could backfire making you the bad guy.
  8. I guess I should add the only goats they have gotten, have been from her, and no other goats have been in or out. And they never owned them before?
    I don't want to spread anything, as I stated.
    I guess I just wanted honesty? She sells grades, and it would just be sad if some unknowing little girl or boy purchased a goat for a pet/4H and then had something like this happen?
    I won't be saying anything, If she can live with herself then I guess it's not my problem.
  9. As I stated I don't want to name names. :wink:
  10. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    It is definately something to think about...IMO, I would really hope that this breeders morals compare to yours Tisie, and that she rethinks her choice. :hug:

    Oh no....I didn't think names would be named at all, just that there are some that can put 2+2 together and not end up with the same answer :hug:
  11. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    you would have to name names if you want to actually "do anything about it" as you feel compelled to do.

    What you can do is just educate those who cross your path who are interested in purchasing goats either for the first time or are still novices in the goat world.

    that is never a bad idea for all of us nomatter if we know of suspicious breeders in our area or not :thumbup:
  12. Thanks Liz :hug: i don't mean to be all defensive, it just bums me out :(
  13. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    I understand you feel passionate - you did ask our opinions but the ultimate decision is yours in what you do about this situation.
  14. FunnyRiverFarm

    FunnyRiverFarm New Member

    Sep 13, 2008
    Hudson, MI
    I would stay out of it...

    Blood tests for CL are not all that accurate...false negatives and positives are very common. I would not jump to any conclusions from ONE positive test...especially since she's never seen an abscess in any of her animals. The internal form of CL is very rare in goats from what I understand. If I were her I would retest the one that came up positive because there is a good chance that it was a false positive, IMO.
  15. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    Unfortunately a lot of newbies and some OLD timers will experience this at some time or another. The only thing I would do in your situation is EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE....... anytime you come in contact with ANYONE interested in goats make sure to clarify that goats are like any other animal and it is important to buy from health tested herds.

    I definitely agree that absolutley EVERY untested animal (be it CAE, CL and Johnes) has the potential to be positive. Even scarier is even tested animals have the potential to be positive as some diseases take 4,5 and 6 years before they will show up in blood or fecal test results.

    It is buyer beware unfortunately. :(

    Just do the best you can with your herd and keep up on testing your animals... what this person does is their business and hopefully they make the right decision to disclose, test, cull and vaccinate (if needed)