[happyhogs]

I have just got two six month old Anglo Nubian wethers and I feel they need some fattening up and some TLC. The lady who bred them clearly adores her goats as they are all super friendly and come running to her wagging their tails and she cuddles and kisses them, knows them all by name, but there also seems to be a bit of an issue with foot rot, lameness, under weight animals and general poor condition. They have been kept on very wet, muddy ground with some access to grass and browse (but I don't really know how much). They have been fed on hay, goat mix and fruit and vegetable scraps. The lady also said she gave them milk if and when she had excess from her milkers but that mum was dry.

I have an acre of decent pasture, with access to oak, mountain ash, hawthorn, beech and bramble so they can eat plenty of grass and browse. I have bought a bag of coarse goat mix (with molasses) and have been giving them a handful, twice a day. I have dosed them with 2ml Dectomax to cover internal and external parasites. Given each of them 2g copper bolus. Have ordered vitamin A,D,E and B12 paste which I will then administer 5ml of, per animal. I have cleaned, scraped and clipped their hooves and ordered foot rot spray as one of them has early signs of it. I have been giving them about 10 oz of pasteurised supermarket goat's milk, once a day (no access to raw milk).

Both boys are bright and alert, full of interest and curiosity and have run the length of the paddock at full pelt with no problem, however, the one with the early foot rot signs (occasional favouring of one leg, a tendency to walk on tippy-toes on that foot, small amount of grey pastey gunge between the toes, bad smell) has hocks that seem to rotate outwards as he walks and when he runs, he tends to gallop on his back legs with both of them hitting the ground together, rather than a 1,2,3,4 gait like his brother. He also seemed to be quite a lot more out of breath after the run than his brother and I would say he is a good few pounds lighter, though he is a smaller goat. His brother, while being in better overall shape, has a dry, hacking cough which comes and goes.

For ease of identity.....the one with the odd gait is called Leon. The coughy boy is Harry.

So my questions are these:-

I don't have scales to weigh the boys but they both seem quite bony....you can clearly see their hip bones and feel their spines. Is there anything else anyone can suggest for weight gain that doesn't put them at risk in any other way (i.e too much grain leading to UC!) Or is this boniness normal in Anglo Nubian kids. I have two pymy x nigerian wethers who are little dumplings so maybe I'm just paranoid??!!

Leon's odd gait, with the hocks rotating outwards....is it likely to be as a result of the foot rot? Is it likely to be a copper deficiency? If the underlying cause is cured either by the footrot spray or the bolus, is the issue likely to correct or will he be permanently affected?

The dry, hacking cough in Harry.....could this be lungworm? The dectomax claims to kill lungworm so if it does, how long before he should stop the coughing? Is there anything else that causes a dry, hacking cough but with no other symptoms?

The boys are six months old and should, therefore, be weaned by now but am I better keeping the milk for now to help boost their health and if so, how much should they have and when do I stop it? Is the supermarket stuff ok for them?

Copper bolus....is 2g OK and how often should I re-dose if they are deficient?

Any other advice at all to a new Nubian mummy?

By the way, I am in the UK where most of the things which are run-of-the-mill available in the States, are not available here so bear that in mind xxxx

Here's a piccy of the boys....not the best but all I have at the mo. Harry is the spotted one, Leon is the fawn.

 

[Suzanne_Tyler]

I doubt milk will help them stay healthy. That's more true for fresh raw goat milk.

The hock issues could be selenium deficiency or hoof problems. I think there was someone on here that had a similar problem, I'll see if I can find that thread for you.

I would probably give 2g copper again in 2-3 months or so.

I'd also start them on some form of alfalfa. It helps them gain weight and prevents UC.

It would be good to get a fecal done just to be sure. No one wormer treats all parasites and giving the wrong one can build up parasite resistance.

For 6 months old, they look like a pretty good size to me. But then, it's hard to guess weight/size from photos.

Ok, here is the thread on the goat with hock issues:

http://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/ideas-on-helping-this-buck-joint-issue.193487/

 

[Jessica84]

Really they don't look to bad! They might be on a up growth which makes them look thinner but I do agree a few extra pounds would hurt especially with winter coming. The copper should help with the hoof rot, good call! The 2grams is enough for 44# they look much larger then that, depending on how comfortable you are giving copper you can start there and increase if you need to. I'm not seeing a fish tail but your saying their hair is rough (??) and that can be where it starts. It's hard to say exactly on the hawk on the one. It may be a mineral, maybe his foot hurts from the rot (it really hurts!) or he may have been hurt as a kid. I would start on feet and go from there but it could simply be him.
I also agree on the alfalfa. It's just all around good and even fed alone they should gain weight. Increase and change slowly especially if you got the feeling they were not fed a whole lot. But honestly I think in time their weight will be just fine!

 

[happyhogs]

Thank you so much for your advice ladies! Suzanne....the video of the Boer on that thread is EXACTLY what Leon's legs look like when he walks....they flex outwards at the hock joint. It seems that foot trimming and vitamin/mineral supplements were the answer there so maybe I'm on the right track. It's reassuring to know I don't think this case is too much to do with trimming, their hooves are in pretty good shape as far as the trim goes but it could be soreness caused by the rot. Hopefully the spray will get that under control (10% cetrimide)

Both of you have suggested alfalfa and thankfully that is an easy fix., readily available at the local country store. I have also now borrowed some bathroom scales from the neighbour and will get hubby to stand on there, holding them, so I can get a proper idea of their weight. Then maybe, I can give a bit more copper if necessary. I will look into selenium supplements too.

What about BOSS? I have plenty of those but at the moment, they don't seem to know what to do with them. They take them into their mouths but then seem to push them around with their tongue, nod their heads around and 90% gets dropped back out. If you guys think it's worth persevering with, I'll do so....will that help with the selenium to a sufficient degree? If so, how much do I give per day?

And thank you again for your help, it is truly appreciated xxx

 

[Madgoat]

Looks like you've got great advice, so all I'll say, is what handsome young boys! Have I said lately, I just adore floppy ears? lol

 

[happyhogs]

I weighed the boys this morning. Harry is 73lb and Leon is 52lb....quite a difference considering they were born on the same day. They have different mums, by the way, despite the fact that I keep calling them brothers (though they have the same sire so they are, sort of). I also gave them a bath as they absolutely STUNK of their dad....that real bucky stench! They smell delightfully floral now, having had a good dose of dog shampoo with skin conditioner. They have lovely soft, shiny coats, it turns out, they just needed a clean-up!

That cough of Harry's seems to get worse when he is more active. I'm wondering if he might have inhaled something??? I am reluctant to put him through the stress of a visit to the vet (and the stress to my pocket) if the lungworm treatment will cover it or if he just needs to cough up some hay. What do you guys think? He is very bright and lively and has no symptoms of illness, just this dry, hacking cough. Does lungworm make them cough like this and if so, when should it stop?

 

[happyhogs]

Looks like you've got great advice, so all I'll say, is what handsome young boys! Have I said lately, I just adore floppy ears? lol

And thank you Madgoat, they are rather scrummy aren't they? I am a sucker for floppy ears too (I also have three lop eared rabbits!) xxx

 

[Jessica84]

Not at all a lung worm pro here but if I remember right they do cough while running if it is lung worms BUT also because of dust allergies on and on. I don't have lung worms here and have never had to deal with them and a lot of mine will cough while running because it's stupidly dry here. But if you treated for lung worms start there and see if it does away. If it doesn't then you might be dealing with dust in the hay, air or just allergies. Another thing that could be causing it is lung damage either from pneumonia at one time or lung worms at one time. Or maybe hurt some how (less likely but...) I had a doe that hung herself one night, very smart doe! And after that she has a terrible cough off and on and has for about 4 years now, it also gets worse while running. I couldn't tell you what she might have damaged but it's her now.
Another option to selenium is a gel that is called selenium and vitamin E gel for goats. I personally am not a big fan of BOSS (black oil sunflower seeds) but I know most people are, but there is that option too

 

[happyhogs]

Thanks Jessica....I have no idea about the lungworms. I read that they are more likely in an environment where there is lots of mud and moisture and that would definitely describe their former home. I don't know how dusty their hay was there but I only buy in quality hay and store it well and I have excellent drainage here too so they will be out of mud and standing water from now on. The humidity here is around 60% so not dry enough to cause a cough in and of itself. Their previous owner has not told me of any prior health issues but I also feel she may not have been fully 'au fait' with goat health and nutrition. Allergies....I know you can give goats human antihistamines, any idea of dose?

Thanks for your suggestion of selenium gel but unfortunately, yet again, I don't seem to be able to get it in UK. I can get a drench which also contains cobalt and B12 but has added A. D and E which I would then be doubling up on with the paste. Or I can get selenium capsules for humans. They are 200 mcg.....could I use these and if so, at what dose? I am aware that selenium is toxic if overdosed so I am wary of using things that are not designed specifically for goats....but then I can't find stuff for goats!!! Goodness knows what British commercial goat farms must use....maybe they go to specialist wholesalers?

As mentioned before, I have two pygmy/nigerian wethers. I have had them for almost eight years now and a few years back, I almost lost one to UC. I genuinely do not believe he would have lived if it wasn't for all the help I got from TGS members. All that advice was passed on to the vet and she acted accordingly. It just proves that the UK are really not set up for good goat care.....we had to improvise so much of his care, based on suggestions from here but working round the lack of availability of just about everything!!! Thankfully, I haven't had any major issues with them since but these two new bubbas need a higher level of TLC than my old faithfuls, hence I'm back to ask the people that know! Thanks TGS xxxxx

 

[Jessica84]

Yes you can use the human ones! I remember a thread on here about using them, I can not start to even recall who posted it but if you do a search on here (for some reason I can not on my phone) you might be able to find it. If you do go with the boss for sure make sure you don't over do it and feed the alfalfa. I am scared to death of UC and boss is high in phosphorus which is why I won't feed it.
I forget we all come from diffferent areas you have to excuse me at times. The bigger goat farms might just depend on loose minerals or salt. I was having a hard time getting my hands on BOSE (long story) but knew mine needed selenium so I got a bag of loose selenium salt and put some out for mine. It was a hit! They slowly, naturally have backed away from it but you could tell they needed it. I looked into salt poisoning since that seemed to be a concern with some when it comes to salt and everything said a animal will not get salt pisoning as long as they have water close by so I set their trough. It's been out there a few months now and all is good. So maybe that's a option too?? I couldn't tell you what a end result is like and can't because I did get my hands on some BOSE but I can tell you no one got sick! Lol
You are right lungworms are a big issue in wet areas. That's about the only thing I really do know lol I have a buck that has allergies and I used robatusim and I believe I used the human dose. He ended up getting to the point he was getting mean about getting it so he lives with it now

 

[happyhogs]

Sorry I didn't respond earlier Jessica, I have had family visiting so been busy, busy girl. All family members, however, are TOTALLY in love with the new goat boys! Tee hee hee!!!

Anyway, back to business.....firstly, don't apologise for forgetting we come from different areas so have different availability. I have learned that you guys in the US have soooooo much available to you that we don't have here in the UK. Not only do your 'country stores' sell so much stuff that here you can ONLY get on prescription but we also have to contend with the fact that practically no vets know anything about goats so are not willing to prescribe the stuff that IS available!!!!

I am still looking into what I can use regarding the selenium and will update as and when but I have another question for anyone out there.....

I have a whole bunch of knee issues since getting run over by a car ten years ago and as a consequence, take glucosamine sulphate tablets. I have a ready supply of these at home and wondered if they might help Leon with his over-flexing, and clearly uncomfortable hock. I did a search on here and loads of people say they are OK for goats' joint issues but I can't find specifics for dosing. These are tablets, providing 785mg glucosamine as 1000mg glucosamine sulphate. Would one a day be safe for a 52lb, six month old goat? More? Less? Sure would appreciate some input. I know you guys have all sorts of this stuff specifically for goats but we don't, so I really need advice on giving the HUMAN supplement, rather than 'try this instead.....'

Thanks in advance
xxx