Another diarrhea question (She died)

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Perfect7, Jun 1, 2010.

  1. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Way too much drama around here lately. Friday we brought home a mama goat and her doeling (about 3 months old). Mama is weaning her off and not letting her nurse much at all anymore. But Friday it was raining hard about an hour after we got home and my cantankerous prego doe, Karma, would not let the new mama and baby into the shelter. So...bright me, I put them in the chicken coop. It was either that, in with the bucks, or out in the rain. I did pick up all of the chicken's feed BUT my helpful children decided once the rain stopped that the chickens were hungry and fed them. :hair:
    Doeling spied eating chicken feed, medicated. Lovely. We went through that with our other three kids when we brought them home, so expected diarrhea the next day and we got it. Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and still today. I began treating with Pepto 15 cc 2x/day on Sunday and no grain since Saturday. I wanted to give her 24 hours to clear up on her own before trying medicine. Probably not a wise choice. Each time I feed the rest of the herd I keep doeling off by herself away from the grain and clean her bottom with sudsy anti-bacterial soap so I can see if there's any fresh the next time. She still has diarrhea, but it's not a lot at any one time and she's showing no obvious signs of dehydration.
    What's concerning me is that her eyelids are white. Not light pink, white. The breeder wormed her and mama with Cydectin Friday before we brought them home and no, I didn't check before we left to see the condition of their eyelids. :doh: So, not sure if this is new from her diarrhea episode we've been dealing with or she was really wormy before. It's also been pouring buckets here so I haven't been able to check for sucking lice and Sevin dust them (same breeder who sold us our buckling who had lice, but they were at a different farm). I've made sure she's drinking plenty of water and have given her nutri-drench for the last three days. When this rain stops I'm going to go check mama's eyelids, too.
    Also, I don't think either of them were used to getting grain daily and we are feeding ours all 18% meat goat feed right now. They are not on hay because the pature is nice and green with plenty to eat. She was on a green pature before coming here as well.
    Anything besides the pepto I can give to stop diarrhea sooner, or is it not really worrisome yet, and how concerned should I be about her eyelids considering she was just wormed Friday? Thanks, guys, and I sure hope it settles down here soon.
    (Oh, and both mama and baby are now happily content with the other goaties in the shelter since they settled down). :p
     
  2. Realfoodmama

    Realfoodmama New Member

    425
    Apr 12, 2010
    Santa Fe, NM
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    You could try so probios? I've had success using it to help solidify stools, especially after a loose episode.
     

  3. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    The stress of having diarrhea as well as the new environment and being pushed out into the rain very likely brought on an overload of coccidia, have a fecal done to confirm but the white eyelids are also telling me this is what is going on. I would start her on a course of sulfa drugs( Albon or Di Methox) and get a temp on her too...not all cases of cocci will cause a high temp but it's best to be sure. Give her hay and some dry oatmeal, the fresh grass will just aggrivate the scouring further... the oatmeal will help bind her poop too. A dose of probiotics will also help ensure her rumen stays healthy.
     
  4. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    Thank you! I will give her some dry oatmeal tonight and don't have any probios on hand but I have culturelle, a human probiotic. It surely wont hurt and can get probios tomorrow, along with Albon or Di-Methox. Do I get that from the vet or OTC at TSC? Thinking out loud, I'll google it. I think I'm safe to give her a little water with baking soda too, right? Time to play mad chemist and get the probiotic with baking soda in a drencher.
    So much to learn. I didn't know that cocci could cause the white eyelids as well as a heavy wormload. She could be the poster child for the Famacha scale right now. :shocked:
    I swear that goats are by far the most medically delicate animals I have ever had! Or maybe it's just boers. :chin: Thank you again!
     
  5. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    The first serious case of coccidia I had here was with a d7 week old doeling over 2 years ago...she did not have worms but the cocci had started to cause intestinal damage which led to anemia...hence the white eyelids. TSC does carry Albon tablets, here they don't carry the DiMethox, just Corid... I've gotten Albon from the vet before, see about having a fecal run and get the med ASAP.
     
  6. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    I will do that as soon as the vet opens in the morning. She ate some oatmeal and drenched baking soda with water plus culturelle. Got her hiney cleaned off well again and checked a temp, 102. She didn't like the baking soda one bit so that was fun. I should have said her diarrhea is nearly water consistency but not black and doesn't smell foul. It's a medium brown color, like rust. Definitely no blood, I can smell that a mile away.
    Should be fun trying to collect a runny fecal in the morning. :scratch:
    :pray: for little balls of poop in the morning.
    And thank you for help on where to get the Albon! I'm sure it's cheaper there than at the vet, but will ask them.
     
  7. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    since the grain was medicated it could be messing with her gut too so I would get a fecal done before treating for coccidia - dont want to mess up her insides more then you have to.
     
  8. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    Thank you! That combination last night seemed to be the magic bullet because her bottom is still clean this morning! She also eagerly torn into some more oatmeal like it was nobody's business (last night slowly eating some). Now my only problem is that there are no poops, no runny and no solid. I will have to follow her around for a bit to get some, but so thankful her bottom is dry for the first time since Friday!
    The chicken feed (starter) was medicated with amprolium to prevent cocci in chickens. Proud to announce we are now non-medicated laying pellets.
     
  9. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    Sounds like improvement that is great... :thumb:

    Are you feeding chicken feed to the goats? Cause it is very bad for them...
     
  10. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    Just FYI, white eyelids can be a definitive sign of dehydration. We lost a fine yearling doe to bacterial enteritis this past fall, and her eyelids went from healthy pink to WHITE in a matter of just a few hours. We literally couldn't keep her hydrated, despite almost constant drenching and even SQ Ringer's.. It wasn't a lack of red blood cells that caused her eyelids to turn white, but a lack of body fluid in general. The eyelids seem to be the first to be neglected in terms of circulation, so they make a good bellwether...which is actually why FAMACHA exists.

    Anyway..

    To check a goat for dehydration, pinch one of their *upper* eyelids between your fingers. If it feels fleshy and supple and snaps right back into place, they're fine...if remains 'tented' for a bit just after you release it, they're getting dehydrated. A dehydrated goat's upper eyelid may also feel kinda thin..

    Having said that, looking at this particular situation from the onset, I'd have been a bit "diagnostically challenged" since this incident could certainly have been the result of a coccidia bloom from stress and/or a sudden change in diet...or it could also have been a bacterial bloom caused by the exact same things, leading to dysentary (think, food poisoning)....or it could have been purely dietary (think, Taco Bell)....or purely stress-related (though stress is probably the least likely given the fact that she did, indeed, have a sudden diet change).

    Lots of possible culprits there..

    For it to have persisted and actually seemed to have led to some anemia/dehydration, I would have medicated based on the concern of it being either coccidia- or bacteria-related.. Without being able to quickly differentiate the two (though taking a temp may have been useful...dunno if you did that or not, as I haven't read the whole thread [shame on me...I know. :p]), I probably would have chosen sulfamethoxazole/trimethoprim -- aka, SMZ-TMP. The sulfa component should be effective against coccidia, while the trimethoprim is effective against common bacterial gut illnesses. In other words, the SMZ-TMP should have been effective either way.

    It's good that she's eating now, though. Usually doesn't take much to put a goat off feed, so she must be feeling considerably better. However....bear in mind that sometimes a goat with coccidiosis will continue to eat, depending on the severity of the case. If it's a bacterial illness, they generally won't eat or drink anything at all..

    If it were purely dietary, I really would have expected it to have cleared up by now with supportive therapy like pepto, probios, etc.. So, from this point, if it continues, I'd probably be more inclined to lean toward a coccidia situation and treat with Dimethox..

    If that doesn't yield improvement, I'd probably either switch to SMZ-TMP or **perhaps** even add some oral neomycin and/or spectinomycin to the dimethox regimen -- though I've NEVER DONE THAT BEFORE!

    Let me say that again.....I've never given a sulfa in conjunction with neomycin/spectinomycin, so, seriously...don't hold me to that...could go very wrong...I have literally no idea. I'm just speaking as if it were me, and I'm liable to try almost anything. lol

    So, those are my thoughts, for what it's worth. I've been wrong a lot and done stupid things before, too, so keep that in mind.

    Good luck. :)
     
  11. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    Thank you so much! I have been checking her skin for tinting and no signs of dehydration, and no fever. Not to say she isn't dehydrated, just not to the point to where she has skin tinting yet. I have been working all day and she never did poop for me before I had to leave so I couldn't get a sample. I've checked on her since coming home and her bottom is still nice and clean. :leap: So either much better or constipated. :chin: Her eyelids still look pale but enough pink that I can now see a difference between that and the sclera of her eyes. Her gums look very pale still. It's unfortunately raining yet again (you guys up North must have wished it all my way), but I'm hoping by feeding time it will quit and I can follow her around to collect some gumballs. Her mama's eyelids and gums are also a pale pink, though not as bad as doelings, and she's been well since arriving here. I'm not sure of their worming history. :shrug:
    Pam, I don't feed them chicken feed. Well, not intentionally anyway! :ROFL: I just meant that after this second mishap I have moved our chickens to non-medicated laying pellets to avoid any more accidents in the future.
    I so greatly appreciate all of you. I think you have cured her already! I will still attempt to get a sample to take to our vet and if not, will be driving her to the vet to get one directly for that cocci. I don't want to let it go, but her eyelids today are more encouraging (along with her fluffy white hiney).
    I'm wondering if it hasn't persisted because she still tries to nurse on her mama and possibly getting some milk on a sour stomach?
     
  12. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    You had said that the chicken feed she ate was medicated with Amprolium....that is the generic for Corid, it is also used to treat coccidia in goats, though not commonly due to the chance that it might deplete thiamine too quickly. At least she's eating and getting back to normal, as long as a goat eats, they make their own thiamine.

    Keep her hydrated, entice her with some yummy water or gatorade...or do as I've been known to do, I add a packet of unsweetened kool aid to the water, the smell alone has them sucking it down. If she is dehydrated, that alone will cause constipation.
     
  13. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    HeHe...just making sure... :wink: :laugh:


    Liz.....Great idea.. :thumb: :greengrin:
     
  14. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    When they get to the point of skin tenting, they're pretty much already dead. That's why it's important to check the eyelids...the eyelids will get dehydrated before anything else.

    Not saying your gal's dehydrated...just saying that skin tenting doesn't mean as much in goats as other species. Just a little "for future reference" sort of a thing, I guess. :)

    Also, if you're unsure of the deworming history on these two, I'd probably go ahead and do it. If it were me, I'd likely hit them with Safe Guard at 3-4x the labeled dosage for goats, for three days in a row, and then I'd probably give them about 10 days and deworm again with something like ivermectin, doramectin, or moxidectin (Ivomec, dectomax, or cydectin respectively)..

    Not only does using two classes of dewormers ensure a better kill of different kinds of worms, but the "white" wormers like Safe Guard are generally less powerful than the "clear" wormers like Cydectin. Basically, it allows you to kinda start off slowly.. The reason you might want to do that is because you're sorta unsure of the kind of worm load you're looking at right now, so killing them off more slowly will help prevent "unplugging" a bunch of holes in the GI all at once, which sometimes leads the animal bleed to out internally..

    Ideally, you'd do this in quarantine and run a fecal egg count afterward to ensure it worked before moving them into their permanent pasture.. I know people who have lost the use of deworming agents on account of bringing in goats which had worms that were already resistant to certain types of dewormers. Not good.

    Anyway...really glad to hear the doeling's doing so much better. :)


    (edited...breed != species. :slapfloor: )
     
  15. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    Wonder if laying pellets would make Karma have this kids sooner? :laugh: I feel better that the medicated chicken feed wasn't something that was going to hurt her, then! I think the chicken starter was like 26% protein. Yikes! We have poop tonight! :clap: Why is it when you spend an hour in the pasture waiting for one goat to poop, nobody poops? Not a single one. Finally she produced two nuggets. I can see the formed balls but they are stuck together still, medium-light brown and a small amount of yellowish mucus mixed in. TMI, right? I collected it in a baggie, but do you guys still think it needs tested for the cocci? Gave her a little more oats tonight and she's been turned out to pasture with everybody, eating grass well.
    And I'm going out to try that unsweetened koolaid! Great idea. Nobody seems to be drinking as much as I would expect for as hot as it has been. :grouphug:
     
  16. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    And thank you, Cmjust0. I have to keep reminding myself that goats are not human. :wink: I will use the eyelids from now on to check dehydration. I was using the skin above her ears since she doesn't have a back of the hand. :)
    The breeder wormed her and mama with oral cydectin Friday (only worming I know of because I asked him when they had last been wormed, so he did it). I would have chosen safeguard or ivermec myself to start. That stuff smelled like kerosene! I guess it may just take some time for them to pink up if it wasn't done for awhile before. :shrug:
     
  17. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    They should pink up pretty quick after being wormed, but it's soon yet. It's also possible that cydectin's worn out on the previous owner's property.. I know of at least one person who lost the use of cydectin on their farm already, and last year alone, I know of SEVERAL goats lost to parasite by different producers despite the fact that they were wormed with cydectin.

    Send the poop off....you went to the trouble of collecting it, right, and surely you don't want to have done that for nothing. lol Have them run a fecal egg *count*.. That should tell you just about all you need to know about their worm burden right now, as well as reveal whether or not the kid's suffering from some degree of coccidiosis.
     
  18. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Another diarrhea question

    Doeling is much better! She has solid formed pellets today of the right color, vet said no cocci or heavyworm load. She thinks it was 1) high protein in chicken food and then 2) munching on the 18% goat feed Saturday morning. She applauded the baking soda, oatmeal, and pepto! She wasn't sure about my Culturelle but said it wouldn't hurt. :p
    Doeling concerned me a bit this morning by just laying around and still the pale eyelids, and I planned on either starting an IV of LR tonight or giving her some sq but she's up nursing on mama and was sucking down that kool-aid water this afternoon. What a great idea! They all love it (peach flavor). Her eyelid didn't spring back quite as flexible as I thought it should but it did not tint. I may still drench some molasses water this evening just to make me feel better, but I think she's okay. Normal poops and tail wagging, all is good.
     
  19. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)

    Even though her fecal was negative for "a heavy wormload" per our vet, I went ahead and gave the doeling Ivermec yesterday afternoon because I've been pushing fluids and her eyelids/gums remained very pale pink. I even have been giving her iron supplements drenched. Last night and again today she's been passing white, flat worms (all dead). They are all mostly 1/4 inch but just saw one 1/2 inch. I would now venture to say that has been her problem.
    Is there some type of worm the Cydectin wouldn't have hit last Friday that the Ivermec hit yesterday? I would guess tapeworms, but thought Ivermec didn't kill them? I plan to follow up with worming again in 10 days with Ivermec and also worming her mother with Ivermec tomorrow because she most likely shares the same kind of worm that responds to this. Should I reworm our whole herd (wormed April and May 3 weeks apart) with Ivermec, and should I dose everyone with Safeguard? On hand I have Ivermec, Safeguard, and Quest (which is dosed for goats exactly like the weight on the tube for horses). Any guess on what type of worm this is? No red stripes, all white. And WHY would the fecal miss this???
     
  20. MiGoat

    MiGoat New Member

    304
    Apr 21, 2010
    West Michigan
    Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)

    Quest is the same medicine as Cydectin...although it (Quest) is higher strength.

    Safeguard works on tapeworms but that is about it (I've read) and just an of interest: tapeworms are not supposed to hurt adult goats)

    I don't know what kind of worm though...ick! LOL