Black Neck Alpine?????

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by Suellen, Dec 18, 2008.

  1. Suellen

    Suellen New Member

    467
    Mar 9, 2008
    Paragonah, Utah
    Hi, I scanned these pictures from my "New goat handbook". I have done a lot of internet searching to find someone with these. I think these Black neck Alpines are adorable. I have two pure Alpines and 4 Alpine mixes. I need more goats [​IMG]? Does anyone have info on these goats? Also I was wondering if there is any health differance in the coat colors.[​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Suellen [​IMG]
    Southern Utah, 8am this morning it was -1 degrees
     
  2. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    these would be termed Cou Noir (pronounced coo nwah) and this literally means 'black neck'.

    I cannot see any health benefits between the different colours exhibited by the French Alpine breed, except that if the skin under the white section of these cou noir animals is pink rather than a dark (grey/black/tan/brown) they will become vulnerable to cancer of the vulva - which I have seen and it is not pretty. Similarly, the Cou Blanc which has opposite markings - white front and coloured rear - if these animals have pink skin in the forequarter this leaves them open to eye cancer - again not pretty, treatable but expensive.
     

  3. Amos

    Amos New Member

    Oct 2, 2008
    Minnesota
    Keren, what if a doe has all pink skin? The Alpine buck I showed you on your BA pic thread (dunno what color skin), and a dark skinned nubian doe had our Jenna, and she has mainly pink skin everywhere as far as I know. What color of skin do Saanens have?
     
  4. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Amos, Saanens according to the Australian Breed Standards should have tan or olive skin, some black spots are acceptable. Pink skin is listed as a fault. I am suprised that your kid came out pink skinned, but then again I am not sure how the genetics of it work. In the case of your doe, I would watch really closely for vulva and eye cancer, as well as udder cancer.

    I have seen vulva cancer in a Boer x Saanen doe with pink skin, though it is a friends doe so I dont have a picture handy. And one of my Saanen does is just beginning to get eye cancer :( when I have a spare moment I will grab a photo for you. At the moment I am doing ALL of my honours paperwork again because apparently the uni lost it somewhere along the way :sigh:
     
  5. Amos

    Amos New Member

    Oct 2, 2008
    Minnesota
    Oh that is great :(
    I think I would die if I lost Jenna.
     
  6. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Amos, cancer is just the worst case scenario and something you should keep an eye out for. It doesnt necessarily happen to all pink skinned animals. It also depends on your climate - it gets VERY hot and sunny here in Oz. And your facilities - make sure she ALWAYS has access to shade/shelter. And just keep an eye on it - in my experience the eye cancer is more common than the vulva. Basically the vulva cancer looks like a wart or a sore on the vulva or any of the skin around the backside, and it doesnt clear up. The eye cancer can start off as just a weeping red eye, or in the case of my saanen a thickened third eyelid. I go out and see if I can get photos.
     
  7. Amos

    Amos New Member

    Oct 2, 2008
    Minnesota
    The hottest it ever gets in the summer here in MN is usually 90, and that doesnt happen alot. She has had the option of shade and the barn all of her life.

    The Saanen with the eye cancer, is that one of the two does you just got?
     
  8. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Yep, I stupidly didnt notice the eye when I bought her. I guess it happens :doh: I have never seen it in such a young goat, though

    Possum's right eye - thickened third eyelid which didnt respond to antibiotic treatment
    [​IMG]

    The same photo zoomed in
    [​IMG]

    Fiona's eye for comparison
    [​IMG]

    You can kinda see the difference in her eyes here
    [​IMG]

    Eye cancer is treatable; if you catch it early often it is enough for the vet to remove the third eyelid. If it has progressed, it can often be stopped by removing the entire eye and stitching the lids closed.
     
  9. lesserweevil

    lesserweevil New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    hrmm I have saanens with pink skin... :roll: they seem to be fine...
     
  10. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    LW ... like I said its not something that affects ALL of them. I just happen to deal with a large number of goats (between mine, the work ones and friends goats) so I tend to see it when things like this crop up. Also something that USUALLY only affects old goats - 8 to 10 yrs plus
     
  11. Suellen

    Suellen New Member

    467
    Mar 9, 2008
    Paragonah, Utah
    WOW Keren it's sad that you didn't notice the eye before you got her but I think she is in the best home she could have (besides mine). [​IMG]
    I did know the terms for Black neck, White neck. . . I also did my searches using them and didn't come up with anything.


    Suellen [​IMG]
     
  12. FunnyRiverFarm

    FunnyRiverFarm New Member

    Sep 13, 2008
    Hudson, MI
    I don't have any info...but those goats are really cool looking!

    Light-skinned animals are more prone to developing skin cancer, just like light skinned people are. There's not much that can be done about it unfortunately...short of slathering sunscreen on them. That's not really practical with most animals.

    I have a white cat and he has skin cancer on his ears...he is 15 years old though, so this took many years of sun exposure to develop. I think places like the ears, nose, and yes, the vulva area, are most susceptible because of the lack of hair covering them...
     
  13. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Suellen, you know I'm a bit conflicted about what to do with this goat. Because she is sooo young, she has never kidded yet never produced for me, she was a VERY cheap goat and you can tell by the quality, and although she is a sweet little thing I'm not sure I can justify the $600 vet bill on a cheap appendix D goat (that is to remove the third eyelid). At the moment I am keeping it patched through summer and monitoring her behaviour, she is not at all worried by it yet so here's hoping she will have a nice little doe kid that I can keep if she gets to the stage where she needs to be euthanased.
     
  14. Amos

    Amos New Member

    Oct 2, 2008
    Minnesota
    Keren, I know alot of cancers are hereditary (atleast for humans), could her kids, even if they are not pink skinned, also be prone to these cancers? Jenna's only kid, a buck we named Ernie, is dark skinned.
     
  15. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    I lost my white doe Liz (RIP) that was 15 years old to Cancer August 25 2007. She had bone cancer. It was in her front leg. She was white and had very pink skin.
     
  16. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    Cancer in white horses is quite commen too. The auctions around here wont take a white horse for the melinoma (sp?) risk.
    I think waht you are actually looking at is either the valais black neck goat
    http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/goat ... /index.htm
    or the bagot goat
    http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/goats/
    Cou noir alpines are extremly rair and often people who say they have them are mistaken by a black and white goat with an extremly large white belt. like this
    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... safe%3Doff he is at the bottem
    they aften have spots on the back end.
    I know roeburns alpines had a true cou noir at one time. but they have taken his pictyure down and i cant remember his name.
    I did a search and couldnt find any.
    beth
     
  17. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    beth, I would imagine one way of getting these cou noir alpines is by breeding up from a boer base, and perhaps this is where the original photos came from?

    Amos, I dont think the cancer is highly heritable, but the pink skin can be, thus a tendency to be susceptible to cancer can be heritable. I would think that your buck kid should be fine with the dark skin.
     
  18. K-Ro

    K-Ro New Member

    371
    Oct 13, 2007
    Texas
     
  19. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    that could be. But i would be more inclined to bred a nigerian dwarf with a black and white belted alpines. Using a buck that is a buckskin with really light tan in the back, and little to no facial markings. That way you at least are keeping in the dairy breeds. If you use a meat goat you will never get back to american statis.
    beth
     
  20. Suellen

    Suellen New Member

    467
    Mar 9, 2008
    Paragonah, Utah
    Beth you are great at the internet searching. Thanks.

    :scratch: :?
    I don't know much about genetics
    Q: Why wouldn't you breed 2 Alpines to try and reach the coloring?
    Q: Wouldn't a Nigerian with an Alpine produce a smaller goat?
    Q: Wouldn't a Boer with an Alpine produce a stockier goat rather than the sleek Alpine?

    Suellen