Bottle Jaw question

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Perfect7, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    I've posted elsewhere for our replacement doe for the doeling we lost due to intestional blockage from tapeworm. Our new doe is from the same breeder (if she wasn't a free replacement, I wouldn't have brought her home). But...I did. Pale eyelids. Wormed her with Equimax. She started passing tapeworms and segments, so that's good. I noticed swelling under her jaw, bottle jaw. It looked like it was nearly gone this morning but tonight it's bigger AND it also looks swollen around her throat latch area. Two seperate areas, soft and squishy swelling that is obviously bottle jaw. I want to stick my foot in that breeders business. :veryangry:
    Okay, I'm collected now. Called our vet and he gave me Valvazen. I estimated her weight at around 65 lbs (pathetic for a yearling boer) and he gave me 5 cc, plus a second dose of 5cc in a week. She's isolated from everybody, so no worries there. She's also got a dry cough, had clear nasal discharge but that is clearing now. Has more energy than she did two days ago and eating/drinking well.
    So, bottle jaw. Anybody dealt with this before and how long until she clears up? I am not going to lose another one if I can help it so please, any and all suggestions. I'll empty a medicine cabinet if I have to, start IV's. I am so not believing this. That breeder should change the name of his farm to Wormy Boers. Sorry for the vent, just agitated. I appreciate any and all help.
    Oh, no temp, lungs clear, respirations normal, pale pink eyelids and gums. Giving nutri-drench, oatmeal, molasses, tried raisins but she refuses. Clumpy poop (but just wormed, so expected). Thanks!!!! :hair:
     
  2. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Haven't dealt with Bottle Jaw, but have been following your posts...
    So sorry that you are going through all of this. Poor girl...poor herd of animals to have such sorry & inadequate care. Hang in there...to this new doe you are probably heaven sent & wearing wings! Imagine what things were like for her before this...poor baby. We're pulling for ya.
    :hug:
     

  3. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    It will take awhile for the swelling to go down and the skin to go back to normal, keep up what you are doing, she'll be better in no time.
     
  4. Mully

    Mully New Member

    408
    Jun 23, 2009
    Mt Ulla , NC
    Valbazen should take care of this ...since the goat may have a large load of worms and when the worms die there is a reaction to the goats body due to the poison released by the worms so the goat could be listless not wanting to eat. Keep good hay available and little grain for a few days to allow the rumen to settle down. I would highly suggest that you get some Hoeggers worm compound and follow using this against worms. I have used this for 4 years and can't say enough good things about herbal dewormers. I mix the powder with molasses and make a brick, slice off what I need and the goats love the stuff. I do my own fecals so i know this herb works great and they get it every week like a treat. Best of luck with this one you are doing all the right things. The "breeder" you purchased the goats from should be closed down!!
     
  5. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Oh man, P7 I am so sorry you are going through this :( I hope that the meds help clear her up. She's such a cute little doe, and it's heartbreaking that she has to go through this too. At least she has a home where people actually CARE.
    Just curious, how did you find the breeder? Did he advertise somewhere? If so, if it were me, I'd try to find a way to warn people about his animals.
    Also did he have her out with all his other does, or was she and a few others isolated from the rest? He probably felt relieved when you came to get another one so he could get rid of his problems.... Makes me so mad just thinking of that as a scenerio!
     
  6. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    I will see if I can find some Hoeggers around here, but may have to order it from somewhere? :shrug: I love going with a natural route first, if time permits and it isn't critical. I'm all about eating a fresh garlic clove myself! :wink:
    As for the breeder, he has website. I found it by looking for boer breeders around us and this was one of the closest to me. I viewed the website, nice animals with impressive wins and bloodlines. And I thought I was doing good to avoid auctions and sickly animals (probably would have done better that way because I would have expected the worst and treated quickly).
    This doe was in a seperate pen when we got there, but he said he was putting her up so we could get her when we got there. I don't know if she was seperated before or not, but she wasn't about two weeks ago when I first saw her. She and the original doe/baby were in a smaller pasture with about 10 other does. All looked fat and healthy.
    I guess it's all just wait and see. She wont touch the hay but eats her grain and loves the oatmeal. She will now eat a few of the raisins. She will eat all the grass I will let her have so I may have to get her on some pasture to maintain her weight. I'm giving her Geritol once a day and 2500 mcg of B12, plus benadryl for the cold.
    Maybe I'm overreacting, I just don't want to sit and watch another one die. She is a very sweet doe, probably the sweetest one we have.
     
  7. K-Ro

    K-Ro New Member

    371
    Oct 13, 2007
    Texas
  8. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Maybe you can contact the goat breeder website that listed his website and make a big complaint to get him off the list? Just an idea...
    I don't think your overreacting, I'd be worried too, especially after what happened to the doeling. It's just plain scary!

    You know.... something I've been thinking about getting is a chain link dog kennel/run. That could be a possability if you want to move her onto some grass, but don't have a place where you can turn her out. Then you could move it around... just a thought. I have seen some breeders here use them for quarantine, for does with newborns, etc.
     
  9. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Generally speaking, bottlejaw is generally the direct result of either barberpole worms or liver flukes.. Taking care of the parasites is going to go a long way toward ensuring her survival.

    Bottle jaw is basically just edema.. What's happening is that your goat has fluid leaking from its own blood vessels. When you think about it, it makes sense for it to go from being not so bad in the morning after she's been laying with her head up all night draining the edema, to being very noticeable in the evening after she's spent all day with her head in the grass at a level below her heart...the edema drains overnight and refills during the day.

    Here's what I'd probably do if she were here:

    RED CELL, pretty much immediately. I know she's little, but I'd probably hit her with about 15ml for a couple of days at least. I *might* drop back to 10ml and finish out a week's worth of daily Red Cell drenches if she made vast improvements...but I'd probably ultimately stick w/ about a 15ml dose for the whole week. Red Cell contains a lot of iron, so it can be really helpful in cases of anemia. Pretty much *made* for anemia, actually...hence the name RED CELL. :p

    Mild worming, right off the bat.. My sense is that she's probably EAT UP with barbepoles, and possibly liver flukes if you're in a flukey area. As such, I'd probably be a little wary of hitting her with something really, really strong (like Levasole, for instance) right now. Kill off too many worms at once and they basically 'unplug' a bunch of holes in the gut and she suffers internal bleeding. I'm thinking Ivomec drenches...it usually still works OK in high doses, but in most places, it's been overused to the point that there's a fair amount of resistance to it.... As such, it probably won't wipe out the entire worm population completely out at once. If you're in a flukey area, consider Ivomec Plus (with Clorsulon) to kill the flukes too.. The goal is to kill off enough to lessen the burden, give her a few days to clot the holes shut, then BLAST her with something really strong to kill everything that's left.

    Copper Bolus.. Whenever you do your BIG worming after the mild worming, I'd hit her with about 3g of COWP from a Copasure bolus.. Not only will it help kill off barberpoles, but copper is also a good way to deal with liver flukes if that's an issue. If she's that bad wormy right now, her copper reserves are probably gone anyway...they release copper under stress, and she's stressed BAD right now.

    Otherwise, supportive therapy. Vitamin B shots as a pick-me-up and appetite stimulant would probably be good.. Maybe a little gatorade in warm water each night to encourage her to drink and keep her electrolytes up.. That sort of thing.

    EDIT: If anyone else can see this post, let me know.. The forum weirded out when I submitted it, and I didn't think it went...but then it did...but it still shows the last post author as the post above mine. I dunno.. Anyway, if you can see this post, reply with "bugaboo!" or something just so I know. lol
     
  10. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Bugaboo! And thank you. Our local feed store doesn't have the red cell and what I had here on hand I used up last weekend. But the pharmacy had geritol (18mg iron, 2.5 mg Thiamine, 2.5 mg b2, Niacin, Vitamin B6 .5mg, Pantothenic Acid 2mg. It also has alcohol, which gave me pause, but a breeder's website had it also as their immediate treatment for bottle jaw. :shrug: This is her second day on it and she seems to tolerate it well, along with 2500 mcg B12 orally and nutridrench, plus benadryl.
    I did pick up injectable Iron-100 (durvet brand) and durvet brand Vitamin B complex injectable. The iron calls for 100 mg of injectable per cc, repeated in 10 days. That's a lot of iron, but I gave her 1 ml tonight. Also gave her a shot of 5cc of the b complex per the bottle. Should I look elsewhere for Red Cell, too? Or would this be nearing toxic levels of iron?
    The edema does make sense to have it set in dependant areas in the evening, thank you! It doesn't look as bad this evening as last night. It even looked puffy along the side of her face up under her eye. I have also moved her to grass and she's eating like crazy. She still doesn't care for the grain but will eat some oatmeal and very few raisins. Her eyes are maintaining light pink and stools remain normal looking with no more tapeworm.
    It's too late for me to worm her gently. I started with Equimax dosed for 300 lbs on the 15th and called the vet yesterday. He wanted me to also give her Valbazen 5mg so I did, and then another 5 mg in a week. She passed tapeworms and segments not long after the Equimax but haven't seen any since the first day, or after Valbazen. The vet wants a stool sample Monday to see what progress we've made.
    She ACTS like she's feeling okay, and is much stronger physically. She's jumping up on the gate at feed time and tugging hard on her lead when I take her out. Her tail is wagging like crazy, so maybe, just maybe I can hope she's starting to recover.
    Hoosier, I think life will catch up with the breeder sooner rather than later. Those bucks are worth a pretty penny and they are at the same farm. Our girl was in the pen next to the fancy bucks. What she has is probably crawling all over the property. I wont ever go back, that's for sure, but somebody with more goat experience than me would probably have seen the obvious much quicker than I did. I was just a sitting duck. And anywhere I buy again, I'm going to ask to see the WHOLE herd. Not just what's presented at the gate. It's a tough lesson to learn.
    And yeah, I think this girl is eaten up with barber pole worms, tapeworms, liver fluke and lung worms (at the least). In North Florida we probably have an overload of it all. But she's obviously a fighter and I'm going to give her every chance.
    I cannot wait for the goat drama here to end.
     
  11. AlaskaBoers

    AlaskaBoers New Member

    May 6, 2008
    Wasilla Alaska
    I had a doe with bottle jaw shortly after kidding, gave her a dose of ivomec and less than 2 days later the swelling had gone down and she looked normal. Weird because I have wormed her a month before kidding
     
  12. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Sounds like you've got her on an aersonal of meds, and I hope it helps. Monday's fecal can't come soon enough! I really hope she gets over this quickly and I TOTALLY understand about goat drama...It's finally starting to calm down here, but I won't get my hopes up on that yet LOL

    I agree about seeing the whole herd. We bought our goats from 3 different breeders, with the exception of Molly whom I rescued. The breeder we bought our first two girls from showed us the girls briefly and we spent most of our time with her does and kids LOL Like 2 hours there, I knew right away I was going to love goats :)
    The other two breeders were the same, very welcoming, and anxious for us to see all the goats. And it was always hard to choose who we'd bring home, because we'd have a lot more than what we have now LOL
     
  13. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Thank you, Katrina. Hearing a story about bottle jaw not being that bad makes me breathe a little better. When I goggled last night it was all "we treated my goat for 6 months and she finally pulled through" or the goats died suddenly even with prompt treatment. So, that helps. I guess only the extreme stories make the papers. :chin:
    Hoosier, it's funny that the four babies I got from a country lady who hadn't wormed/grained/medicated the whole herd of 50 in two years are the ones who have had no problems at all. Not one. They are boer/kiko crosses and she breeds 3x in two years. There's something to be said for that. I may look into a kiko buck to rent in the future, hers. Or maybe it was more survival of the fittest and what's left of the herd are tough as nails. Either way, impressive.
     
  14. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    :clap: Lolita seems to be doing so well today that I could jump for joy. Her eyelid color has moved to the Famacha "borderline", no swelling under her jaw after all day of grazing the pasture, and she's full of energy! She's stomping her foot and shaking her head at a pesky horsefly and running around playing on tires! Her eyes are bright and she is taking in everything. She still looks underweight but is already filling in and eating everything offered, then waiting for more! Oh, I so hope this lasts. We might have saved one! Still keeping up treatment and worming again at 7 and 14 days. Thanks to all!
     
  15. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    LIVER FLUKE
    (an often-misidentified worm that's lethal if not treated for properly)
    Update 12/08
    by Sue Reith.

    SYMPTOMS

    Liver fluke damage is generally rather slow in appearing in mature goats... In a reasonably healthy goat, it can take years of gradual decline before the owner is even aware that Liver fluke is present. Symptoms are some, if not always all, of the following: Gradual increase in unthriftiness (dry coat, guard hairs sticking up, ribbiness, pale eye membranes (indicating anemia caused by the worm's activity), a swelling under the jaw (that has erroneously been considered among the veterinary community to be symptomatic of resistance to treatment for haemonchus contortus), and, eventually, a possibly sub-normal temp (less than 102 degrees), a distended belly (symptomatic of last-stage liver disease), and fecal pellets that are almost black in color and shriveled up with pointy ends on them.

    Often the victim goat is one that has been wormed routinely, and yet still continues its gradual decline. The problem is that there's only one wormer on the market that will wipe out Liver fluke properly, Ivomec PLUS, (the PLUS part being clorsulon, specifically for eradication of Liver fluke) and many owners don't even know this wormer exists! Sadly, even when the owner finally learns about it and starts treatment, by that time there has often already been too much damage to the goat's liver for it to be saved even after proper worming.

    BTW: While Liver fluke damage is often found in otherwise well-managed mature goats that despite good care continue to decline in appearance, in my experience this sudden appearance of anemia and weakness with either normal, or subnormal, temp (and sometimes swelling under the jaw as well) is not at all unusual to discover in young ruminants within the first few months of life as well. At that age it commonly shows up when they're heavily exposed to it in pastures containing wet areas, before their immune systems can get up and going to protect them. In fact, it's not uncommon for these young victims to die so fast they hardly have time to be sick.¹ This is especially true if there are any clostridial (Entero) organisms present in them, since they multiply and secrete their toxins fast in the already damaged, poorly oxygenated liver tissue .¹

    TREATMENT:

    I'm not one to quit without at least doing my best to save the goat... So if a goat of mine were affected with Liver Fluke I'd start it immediately on Ivomec Plus, using the appropriate worming approach as follows: All wormer packages note on the packaging that the product kills off ONLY the adult stages. So in order to get the worm load in the host down to a low enough level so that the immune system can take over and keep the problem under control, you need to worm 3X, with 10 days between wormings. The first dose will wipe out the adults already in there, the second dose will wipe out the larvae that were in the gut, but not affected by the first worming, as they become adults (but before they can start laying eggs of their own), and the third dose kills off any eggs that were left over after you started the worming regimen,when they've passed thru the larval stage, when they, too, have become adults.


    And as soon as you've begun the repair process by giving the first dose of Ivomec Plus, the next step would be to immediately start the goat on subcutaneous injections of Ferrodex 200 (each 1 ml dose of which delivers 200 mg of elemental iron... BTW: If the Ferrodex 200 isn't easily accessible, go to the local Rite Aid or other drug store and buy a bottle of Iron tablets (Ferrous Sulfate, ~321% or 65mg, crush them, and feed with yogurt) (1 Ferrous Sulfate tablet is equivalent to 1/3/ dose of Ferrodex200, so 3 iron tablets would be the equivalent of 1 daily dose provided in Ferrodex200), to restore the liver's red cells, the loss of which was the cause of have caused the anemia and the blackened, shriveled, pointy-ended fecal pellets. And at this very critical time, as adjunct (supportive) therapy, I'd give it subcutaneous doses daily of 'Fortified' B-complex' (a combination of B vitamins needed for proper body function that has everything but B-12), essential because every time the patient urinates, it's losing all of those vitamins that are needed to maintenance of its body functions, and BoSe (to support his stressed immune system so that the goat can help itself to get well from inside, while I work on it from the outside), and Banamine (to reduce the goat's pain and cut the inflammation caused by the worm damage) which, once given, will encourage the goat to want to eat once again! And last but not least, I'd give the goat a preventative doe of C&D antitoxin (to prevent entero from taking this opportunity to sneak in and finish the poor victim off because while it's down its stomach is not digesting food and moving it out of its body as it should.)

    BACKGROUND :

    Liver fluke is found in most of the US, but it's especially common in the Southern states due to the lack of good frosts to wipe out eggs and larvae in winter. We see it often up here in the Northern states as well, but because we have colder winters, the numbers, fortunately, are somewhat lower. However during the rainy season, no matter what part of the country the goat lives in, the Liver Fluke problem becomes particularly pervasive each year!

    Today, by far the most difficult problem that we as owners face with Liver fluke treatment/control is that the veterinary community in general isn't even aware that it's there. As a result, they're unable to recommend proper treatment for it. This is because the egg of the Liver fluke (Fasciola hepatica)² looks so similar to that of the Barberpole worm (Haemonchus contortus)² that when it shows up on the slide in the Vet's office it's routinely misidentified to BE that of the Haemonchus contortus (or perhaps by some general term like strongyles, stomach worms, et al). And this is despite the fact that the Merck Veterinary Manual (8th Ed. Pp.197-198)³, which, BTW, is not a text used in Vet Schools, but in fact is instead a text available to Vetinarians and Goat owners as well, in discussing its prevelance, notes: "Fasciola hepatic, the most important trematode of domestic ruminants, is the common cause of Liver Fluke disease in the USA and other temperate areas of the world. It's endemic along the Gulf Coast, the West Coast, the Rocky Mountain Region, and other areas... IT is present in Eastern Canada, British Columbia, and South America... etc and so forth.. They have even found it in Europe, Australia,in NEw Zealand, Africa and Asia, and it's been reported in Hawaii as well"...

    Until just a few years ago the veterinarian, seeing what was thought to be Haemonchus contortus eggs on the slide, would recommend Ivomec to the owner as the wormer of choice to eradicate it. And rightly so, because the moment Ivomec appeared on the scene back in the early 1980's, it was recognized as the most effective general wormer to show up ever! And frankly it remains, in my view, still the best and most efficacious general wormer on the market today.

    And largely because the real Haemonchus contortus has always responded very well to Ivomec, veterinarians, misidentifying Liver fluke eggs as those of Haemonchus contortus, quite logically continued recommending Ivomec for treatment. When the Liver fluke failed to respond to the Ivomec treatment, unfortunately the loss of the animal in question was assumed to be a sign of the Haemonchus contortus having developed 'resistance' to the Ivomec! This notion has now become so pervasive that the veterinary community in general believes these days that the worms affecting livestock have developed a resistance to Ivomec, the result being a recommendation to their clients that they (1) increase the doses, and (2) turn to other wormers. Neither approach has even slowed down the deaths being caused, in fact, by Liver fluke. Since neither of those suggestions are working, the most recent approach has been to set up Famacha classes to instruct owners and veterinarians alike in how to check the eyelids of the downed animals to see if they're anemic. If the animals have pale eyelids, indicating they're anemic, owners are sometimes advised to destroy the victim, fearing that if it lives, the 'resistance to wormers' will spread even further.

    Sadly, neither plain Ivomec, nor Panacur, nor any of the other general wormers on the market today, are effective against Liver fluke. The fact is, this parasite can ONLY be eradicated efficiently by using a product called Ivomec Plus . It's not the Ivomec itself, but the PLUS part of the combined wormer, which is actually 'clorsulon' , that effectively wipes out Liver fluke. And (very critically) since it only kills the ADULT of the species, clorsulon (just as all wormers) has to be used at regular doses, 3 X in a row, 10 days apart, to kill it off completely. ¹

    And it will no doubt be of particular interest for those owners who are worried about using milk from does being treated with Ivomec Plus that the Pharmaceutical companies have now run the required tests on those two products that officially clears them for use in lactating ruminants!

    So in my view, these days (particularly if the reader is having a hard time controlling internal parasites in his/her animals) Ivomec Plus (instead of plain Ivomec) should ALWAYS be used for general worming, 'just in case'! Just like regular Ivomec, it can be given orally although it's actually an injectable. But since right now Ivomec itself is less readily being used by people (most of whom have never even heard of Liver fluke, and many of whom have their vets ID their goats' fecal samples as well) Ivomec Plus, while its importance is gradually growing among goat owners, may not yet be available in your local feed store... However it is readily available in livestock catalogs, and online as well, at about the same price as Ivomec.

    ADDENDUM:

    2 sets of photos follow below...

    In Set #1 below you will see 2 pictures of does, The 1st one is of a doe that had been treated for Haemonchus contortus for many months by the owner, with guidance from her veterinarian, to no avail... And the 2nd one is a picture just a few weeks after the same goat began to be treated with Ivomec Plus for Liver Fluke, after the owner had read my article on the subject.

    In Set #2 below you will see two pictures of egg photos, The 1st one is of the Fasciola hepatica (Liver fluke) that the vets don't even recognize as existing, And the 2nd one is of the Haemonchus contortus, the common stomach worm that's relatively harmless, but to to which the vets attribute all of the damage that's actually done to the animals by the Liver fluke. Upon looking at them both you will see that the two eggs do look very similar to one another... There is a difference in size between them, but since the two types of eggs are virtually NEVER seen on the same slide together, the size difference plays no role in determining which is which!

    END

    ¹ Georgi's Parasitology for Veterinarians, Dwight Bowman, 7th Ed. P116.
    ² Veterinary Clinical Parasitology, Sloss & Kemp, 5th Ed. P.41, Fasciola hepatica eggs; P.46, Haemonchus contortus eggs
    ³ Merck Veterinary Manual, (8th Ed. Pp.197-198)

    Sue Reith
    C Carmelita Toggs
    Bainbridge Island WA
    [email protected]

    (While I urge you to share this information with other individual goat owners, please do not reproduce the article for publication without my specific permission. Thank you. Sue Reith.)

    This info was given to me directly from Sue Reith... I did get her permission to share it with my goaty forum. :)
     
  16. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Thank you, Jess. Valbazen and Praziquantel (in equimax with the ivermectin) are supposed to also work for liver flukes, so now I'm totally confused as to what I'm supposed to be using. I'm not a fan of Valbazen only because of issues it can cause with abortion and reproductive health, so would gladly switch to ivermectin plus and be able to control liver flukes whether they were pregnant or not. Ivermectin Plus doesn't kill tapeworms, though, and I just read that Ivermectin Plus can cause abortions in pregnant goats just like Valbazen (wormer post on this forum) :hair: I have to consider all of my does pregnant since they weren't born here until they've been here 5 months.
    :sigh: Just when I thought I had it all figured out. I have a tack room now full of regular ivermectin, safeguard for goats, cydentin (in Quest), Equimax, some Valbazen, and none of them may worm for liver flukes. It would probably be easier to sign them all up for a round of chemotherapy! :laugh:
     
  17. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    I just spent two hours looking up liver flukes and their life cycles (praziquantel is used to treat them in humans, dogs, cats, cattle, sheep with great efficiency and safe for the pregos, too), and it seems they need snails/slugs for the eggs to turn into larvae to infect animals. We do not have snails or slugs on our property, nor any ponds. The wettest area on our property is around our pool, nowhere near the pastures. So *hopefully* when the adults are dead they are gone for good. :leap: :cool:
    Now I can go to sleep. I hate worms. I am so looking forward to getting that stool sample back Monday. :wink:
    The rest of the herd gets Equimax again tomorrow.
    Jess, I had written another reply and it got lost somewhere in cyberspace. Not sure what happened to it! I really, really appreciate all of your research on fluke worms and sharing it with me and everyone else. I plan on getting Ivermectin Plus and giving it to this doe, too. I'm sure I can give it with the Equimax at the 7-10 day mark and I want to make sure I get it all. Seems like Cydectin (used heavily in this area) is missing quite a bit. :hug: