Breeding Question - Defective Repro System in Doe?

Discussion in 'Goat Management' started by firelight27, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    Alright, so I just purchased a very lovely doeling. The owners would only sell her to me if I agreed to take her friend, Poit. They gave Poit to me for free, although she is a registered doe out of amazing lines (I wish I could steal her sire...drools.)

    In any case, she was a freebie because of a couple of things. One, her hocks turn in quite badly. They nearly touch, it is that bad. However, I have seen her dam and sire up close as well as in photos. They have nice, straight legs. I have seen numerous photos of all of her grand-parents, who were showing animals..from the side and behind. All of them had correct legs as well. I have no idea how those legs happened and am hoping it is a fluke that could be bred out easily, because she is gorgeous otherwise.

    Secondly, and most importantly...the owners said that the vet told them they should not breed her.

    The story is that they bred her for kids this spring. They were not there for the birth, and found one kid dead. The other was alive, but seemed slow. At a few months old, they found the kid collapsed in her pen. They rushed her to the vet, and she said she had severe pneumonia and started treating her. She started doing better, but plummeted again when they tried to feed her the next day and it went into her lungs. They ended up putting her down, and had a necropsy that revealed that she had contracted pneumonia due to milk getting into her lungs, and that she had white muscle disease (which is commonly accompanied by pneumonia due to aspiration of milk.) So basically, the kid had a severe selenium deficiency.

    Now, the vet told them that it was likely the kid had an issue beginning within the womb, and because they gave the dam BoSe injections and the kid a BoSe injection at birth...then there was probably something wrong with the dam in that she did not provide the proper nutrients to her kids in the womb or her milk.

    Now, to me...this sounds like a vet making wild guesses. I thought kids born with white muscle disease are unable to rise at birth and are very weak. They said she seemed off from birth, but she was healthy...And I have had several kids who were "off" at birth who were just a little slow and took a day (or a few days) to not act "stupid" or to be as active or coordinated as it's siblings. Sometimes you have weak kids at birth for a number of reasons. Sometimes they try to come out with their head back or what not and they are a little off until they get over the trauma of their birth.

    I did not see any minerals available for their goats. Maybe I missed them. However, I've read that while a BoSe injection will provide selenium....it is a poor substitute for selenium in the goat's actual diet. Could she have "bad" milk? Or could it simply be a case of the owners not supplementing her correctly or providing a proper diet? They didn't have any problems with the rest of their does and their kids...but perhaps she wasn't getting enough of the food, minerals, etc? They did say she was one of the most timid goats in their herd, so I imagine she was at the bottom of the pecking order.

    They said they wouldn't hold it against me to breed her again, but I worry. Is there a way to test the kids or the milk to make sure they are getting enough selenium during the first few months? I feed a loose goat mineral with selenium and vit E. I also saw some gel in a tube that you give your goat once a month as it's only selenium/vit E supplement in Jeffers Livestock Mag.

    What is your opinion?
     
  2. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon

  3. Lexibot

    Lexibot New Member

    326
    Jul 27, 2010
    Missouri
    I myself, would try breeding her under my wing. Especially if that was her first set of babies. Could any of this stuff be caused by a sire? I wouldn't know. It could be she didn't have a proper diet, it could be she's bad to breed. But give her another chance, I guess.
     
  4. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    I'm definitely thinking about it. I'm hoping that she doesn't pass those hocks, and her genetics say she shouldn't even have them. If she does, her kids can always be sold as pet quality only. I always have a demand for the lower priced grade kids, and I only have one grade doe left.

    I feed Manna Pro Goat Minerals, free choice. I was thinking about buying the selenium/vitamin E gel comb in a tube to give to her before kidding (and to the kids after birth) rather than a BoSe shot as well. It seems the general consensus is that being digestive is preferable to injected, as the body is able to use it more efficiently. I'm also going to drop some weight on her before she is bred, because I am wondering if her being fat could effect her pregnancy. I feed high quality hay all year, they also get nice pasture in the spring and summer months, and pregnant and lactating does get All Breed feed and are grained separately. It is time consuming, but it means I know everyone gets the exact amounts I want them to have.
     
  5. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    ok reading all this -- this doe is herself very deficient (hocks turning in is one of those signs). So by them giving her a BoSe shot it wasnt enough for the kids -- they didnt receive enough more then likely in the womb because mom was utilizing it for her needs.

    the idea that the kid had pneumonia after only being a couple hours old is a bit off to me. Pneumonia is something you develop not just have when born. I think there is some missing pieces to the puzzle there.

    Personally I wouldnt breed her for a couple months though, give her time to be on a good diet and loose minerals to help her overcome her deficiency. Then come late December or January you can breed her.

    Yes you can give the Selenium vit e gel from jeffers.
     
  6. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator Supporting Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    I completely agree with Stacey. Sounds like she had a major deficiency.
     
  7. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    The kid didn't have pnuemonia a few hours after it was born. It developed pnuemonia a couple of months after it was born. Do you think her hocks might straighten up a bit with proper supplementation?

    Also, what minerals would you recommend? I have been using Manna Pro...but after comparing the copper, vit. E and selenium content to some other brands...and some of the cattle brands that a lot of goat owners recommend (particularly Fiasco Farms)..I don't feel as if it has a sufficient amount. I live in Oregon, and the Pacific NW is known to have very deficient selenium in the soil. I am wondering if Manna Pro is designed for areas where selenium levels in the soil are more normal. I have had a little bit of a problem with a couple of my newborns being a little weak in the legs, but it always resolves itself within a day of birth without any injections. I haven't had any other problems...that being the case, however, I think they could use a little more supplementation.
     
  8. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Sorry I missed that part I read it to fast and took it as she was taken to the vet right afterbirth my mistake

    I like Sweet Lix Meat maker and i just heard they make a Sweet Lix Milk maker

    Purina has a good one but my favorite is Top Choice by Southern States
     
  9. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    JUST MY OPINION :)

    I would definitely do a BoSo shot. Our goat vet and multiple show judges have confirmed for us that the BoSe shot actually works BETTER than the Gel. I unfortunately don't remember why, but these were all very qualified & experienced individuals. The judges are licensed in several goat registries and have judged for a number of years.

    On a parallel note, yes a BoSe treatment would definitely help legs, hocks, pasterns, all of it....not to mention it helps the doe's get ready for breeding season as it helps with fertility.

    Some notes I found on Selenium & Vit. E:

    Selenium: Selenium deficiency, like Vitamin E deficiency, can cause white muscle disease (nutritional muscular dystrophy), causing the goat to have difficulty controlling its muscles. Newborns with weak rear legs may be selenium-deficient. Kids may be too weak to nurse their dams. Pneumonia may result from weakness in muscles that control breathing. Producers raising goats in areas having selenium-deficient soil must make sure that this mineral is added to feed.

    Vitamin E: Feeding sileage or old hay can produce Vitamin E deficiency and result in white muscle disease. The injectable prescription product BoSe contains both selenium and vitamin E and is often given to newborns in selenium-deficient areas. Vitamin A-D-E Gel is available for supplemental oral use.
     
  10. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    The reason Vit E is added to the gel and shot is because selenium cant not be absorbed without vit E

    So in some cases does arent selenium deficient but actually vit E deficient

    Gel vs shot - the BoSe shot is immediate and not long lasting. The gel takes longer and you have to give it every month to be 100% effective. But its more of a continual source of both vit E and selenium
     
  11. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    So maybe the "experts" were referring to the BoSe shot as being a better choice because it's quicker getting into the system????? ... hmmmm....

    I personally use the gel, but am very diligent about giving regular supplements the moment my goats look "off" at all... and I check them daily. It's just my perfectionist personality.
    So it's worked great for me... but maybe in this situation of her doe already being deficient, maybe the shot would be better at this point, then move on to the gel for a continual maintenance?
     
  12. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    well the doe already had a BoSe shot recently so I wouldnt give another so close together
     
  13. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    That makes sense, about the difference in the shot and the gel. From what I heard, the gel worked better for longer term supplementation...and as Stacy says the shot is more immediate but is shorter term. I have never given BoSe shots because my goats have never show signs of deficiency and I've always supplemented with minerals. With these two I wonder about the safety of feeding free choice minerals with selenium AND giving either gel once a month or BoSe injections (how often?) at the same time.

    The other thing is that the younger doeling is SO SMALL! (Banshee) She is 8 months old, and she literally has not grown one bit since I saw her at 4 months old. Her front end is much lower than her hind end and just seems shrunken. She has a huge pot belly and generally looks stunted. Poit has something of a pot belly as well. The breeder was worming them with Safeguard. I wormed them with Ivermectin today because I think Safeguard is too resistant anymore and doesn't do much of anything. I am going to get some Valbazen in the next few weeks so I can treat them for tapes. The little one seems to stand hunched a lot, but I'm not sure because her rump is so tall it might be an illusion. They eat fine and don't have diarrhea. Seem happy. Their eyelids are a little bit pale of a pink. They aren't super light either.
     
  14. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    Alright, the livestock block is "Champions Choice Selenium "90" Trace Mineral Salt." It is for horses, beef and dairy cattle and swine. So it has the added copper that sheep can't have.

    Should this be alright all alone (they DO like it and use it)...or will it hurt to add the Purnia Minerals free choice? Also, because I think that Poit is definitely selenium deficient...is it safe to supplement with all of those minerals and give her a sel/Vit E gel once a month at the same time? Can I give the E/A/D gel as well along with it? I want to rehab these two well. I think that Banshee, the small one, could really use it as well. I don't think being a late bloomer has to do with her size...I really think she is stunted.

    Poit's Legs:

    [​IMG]

    They seemed less severe when she was a yearling, from photos I have seen. It really seems like their goats were well nutrition-ed before and then this year they have had problems by looking at how stunted looking Banshee and her siblings are and the problems they had with Poit.

    Poit from the side:

    [​IMG]

    She is deep bodied, but she is also POT bellied. You can see it even more when she is standing in a more relaxed manner. I had my dog with me, and thus her alert stance and curled tail. She doesn't like dogs. Lol. Makes it hard to judge her rump, but it actually has a nice slope and length contrary to this photo.

    Another:

    [​IMG]

    Banshee:

    [​IMG]

    All my kids go through some stages where they are downhill and need to catch up...but she is extreme and at 8 months... Its almost like she was growing, and she just stopped at that stage at about 4 months old. I mean, she is literally the same size she was then.

    [​IMG]

    Here you can really see how "shrunken" her front end looks. I paid next to nothing for this pair, so if they don't pan out to be better than more than just pets I'm not going to be upset. But I'd love to do what I can to help them catch up on their nutrition and health so they can get to looking good. Banshee's parents are on the smaller size, but not abnormally so, only a little smaller than any of mine. And they are nice looking with great length and level toplines...so I just think there may be a whole slew of nutritional issues that were going on with this herd? Hopefully they bloom for me.

    I absolutely do not want anyone to get the wrong impression of my idea of the farm. They are wonderful people, and have wonderful animals. They don't seem to have had a problem before this year with kidding, etc. I personally think they have some nutrition issues in their herd looking at these two, but they take great care of their animals regardless. It might just be a switch in feed or health products that isn't working as good as what they were doing before.
     
  15. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Sorry for the confusion... I didn't see where they had been given recent BoSe by the prior owner.... very sorry if I confused the situation. I definitely don't want to do that. So sorry.... :oops:

    I also just realized you're in Oregon (So. Oregon) and I'm outside PDX (Oregon). I haven't seen any good from Safeguard wormer in my/our area. I wouldn't put any faith in Safeguard myself, but that's just me. I use a horse wormer - carefully of course not to overdose- Quest gel or Ivermectin paste (believe I got the Ivermectin paste routine from Stacy here) on NON-preggo animals... Valbazen on kids & doe's that just kidded.
    I actually don't stick to a "strict" schedule for supplements. I pay more attention to the condition on the goats and how they are standing on their feet/pasterns and also consider the timeframe. I'd say every 2-3 months I give the Sel/E gel (about 3-4cc's). My goats get a wonderful free choice mineral from our local feed store....it's mirrored after Sweetlix Meat Maker minerals which are GREAT! Not too high in salt/sodium (Purina's a bit high) but if it's the only one you can get then definitely do so. My goats also get free choice sea kelp too, which is loaded with good vitamins/minerals. Plus they get small amounts of copper supplement (Copper Bolus/Copasure) about every 10-12 weeks or so...again I go by how their coat looks (i.e. color, texture, tail ends) -- I only put a small pinch of little copper rods mixed into some peanut butter for them when I see it's necessary.
    As for the block free choice & the loose minerals, well I've never seen a goat overdose on their own....but I also stick to minerals & feeds that are specifically for goats. I tried to feed a basic All-breed feed mix for awhile (because I feed it to other livestock already & it's cheaper) & noticed a significant downturn in my goats condition, especially in their coat condition, within just a few weeks. As soon as I went back to their regular goat feed, they bounced back. I guess I just needed to realize that I don't have the degree (or salary) to call myself a nutritional expert...so I'll leave it to the professionals to make the proper feed for my specific animals.
    As for the baby, my first thought when I saw you were in Oregon was Coccidia. It seems our area was hit quite hard this year with Coccidia from the yucky wet weather this spring. She has the body structure of the kids I've seen with stunted growth from cocci. Did you know of any diahhrea she had as a baby? Or it could also be just from the selenium deficiency...or a combination of both????

    I've re-read the entire post again, and I'm not seeing where the doe recently had a BoSe shot, only the statement that she had a shot before kidding, which when re-reading the story would have been quite a few months ago, possibly 4-6 months.???? I wouldn't see anything wrong with doing another BoSe shot or gel supplement, especially in the condition she's in right now. I think she could use it. I also agree with Stacey on waiting to breed her...she needs some good tender loving care of her own for awhile before putting demands on her body & legs again.

    Here's some articles I have saved over the past few years on Selenium that I hope might help you out... Luckily if it is selenium then I think the older doe's legs could really turn around. She certainly looks like a beautiful doe. I'd love to know her breeding, as she looks like she has a nice pedigree behind her. It makes me very happy to know you are working so hard to tweek their diets to get them the necessary intake. Good for you! :clap:
    http://sheepandgoat.com/articles/WMD.html
    http://saanendoah.com/copper1.html
    http://www.goatbiology.com/selenium.html
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    well seh has two topics going so I might have read the BoSe shot on the other topic. Its been very confusing flipping between the two to get all the information about these goats.
     
  17. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    Thanks for all of the info! I have decided to go ahead and leave the selenium block out as well as free choice, goat specific loose minerals. They can pick and choose what they need. I will give Poit another BoSe shot in a couple of weeks so that it is not so close together with her last shot. I decided to steer clear of the selenium gel for now, since they have access to a selenium supplement. The gels continually warn to make sure they have no other source of selenium in their diets and I am not taking away their minerals because it has everything else they need in it, including the copper. I don't think they are copper deficient, at least their conditions don't say they are...and I have never had any problems with mine.

    I was seriously wondering about Cocci stunted growth on the kid as well. I have no idea if they had diarrhea issues. I always do preventative treatments with my kids with Sulmet. I just ordered two 300ML tubes of A, E, D, and B12 gel. I am going to be giving it to both Poit and Banshee and see if I can't get them fixed up. I am really hoping I can get Banshee to grow. She looks odd now, but I think if her front end caught up with her back end and she gained some length, she could look good. Her parents do at any length. I really wanted a replacement of the one I got from them before (same sire) that I lost to poisoning. But Banshee is much poorer looking than she was when I saw her as a baby. I have heard it is a real gamble with stunted kids, because sometimes you just can't fix their growth issues in the long run. Especially at 8 months... I think I am going to buy a bag of goat-specific grain if I can find some. The reason I feed all breed is A. The same as you, I feed to different species (horses and goats) and it is cheaper that way. And B. I haven't found any goat specific feeds at the two feed stores I frequent. Might have to go a town or two over or see if I can get some special ordered. So with the minerals, the a,e,d,b12 gel and come high quality goat grain I might be able to coax their bodies into being what they should be.

    Good news is that Banshee isn't all hunched up like she was yesterday. I doubt wormer can work that fast, but I am hoping that a worm problem might be all it is with her. I do the same thing with using ivermectin horse paste. Its easier and I just adjust to the proper dosage. Never had a problem with overdosing. I am going to re-worm both in 2 weeks, and then again 2 weeks after so I can catch three whole worm cycles if they have an issue. With their pot bellies and slightly pale eyelids I am thinking it is a good precaution.

    I will keep everyone updated and take photos as they progress. I am hoping I have success, and then if I keep a photo log maybe someone can use them to write an article on rehabbing selenium deficient adults...and stunted kids. The more articles out there to help goat people the better. Its a hard species to raise sometimes because of the lack of vets who do goats or seem to know much about them.

    And no, I won't be breeding Poit until I see a lot of improvement. Also, I would cross her on Gizmo....and he won't be ready for probably 5 months...at the very least height wise. Lol. He is almost 3 months is all. But he has extremely straight and correct legs.

    Oh, and here are Poit's lines:

    Sire: Pholia Farm KM Goliath *B
    Sire's Sire: AGS Kaapio Acres RB Moonstruck +B
    Sire's Dam: AGS QSF PH Marias Fiesta 1*M

    Dam: Pholia Farm RA Zilla (unshown, unappraised)
    Dam's Sire: AGS Rosasharn SS Aquarius +B (LOVE!)
    Dam's Dam: AGS Pholia Farm QS Dewdrop 1*M

    So I LOVE her lines and hope her leg/breeding issues are fixable!

    Banshee's sire is a full brother to a Piddlin Acres herd sire. Cowboy Boots I think?

    Sire: Piddlin Acres BZ Suede Boots
    Sires Sire: AGS Lost Valley TB Bonzai
    Sires Dam: CH Piddlin Acres V Tessa's Boots (goregeous doe)

    Dam: Pholia Farm HH Breeze
    Dam's Sire: Ch Pholia Farm RA Hubba Hubba
    Dam's Dam: Pholia Farm KM Lo-La

    Again, I really like her lines...so I hope I can reverse her stunted....um...ness? Lol. Dictionary!
     
  18. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    Oh, how often do you give the A,E,D,B12 gel? The label tells you the dosage, but not how often you give it? Every day, once a week, once a month? I know humans will take those same vitamins in large doses every day with no sides effects. Seemes like a once a week thing, but I'm totally unsure because there are no real directions.
     
  19. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Never used it so I dont know


    As to the adults legs -- that looks like a deficiency issue but I doubt improvement is possible as it probably happened in her early development stage and therefore her bones grew like that.

    The doeling could grow out of her funky stage but I also feel this is due to parasites and deficiency. Copper deficiency could easily be a culprit here. Worming is good - I would also put her on a 5 day treatment of Dimethox or Sulmet to treat for coccidia.

    A goat specific grain is good -- but if you cant then i hear mare and foal is pretty close. Just a suggestions
     
  20. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    I absolutely know Poit's lineage VERY well, and no she should not have those legs (genetically) AT ALL. She comes from outstanding west coast lineage, so it leads me to believe that she definitely has & had some very serious deficiency issues, probably since her birth there. You probably didn't notice or didn't get the chance to look very closely, but I'll bet money on the fact that it's actually noticeable in the rest of the herd, just maybe not as bad. Whether it shows in their weak pasterns, poor hoof & hair condition, or birth rates...it's there.
    Nothing against her breeder, but knowledge is everything...absolutely everything! And they just didnt/dont have the knowledge...yet. :) Hopefully they will in the future. I see quite a few "deceased" on their short kidding list there...I've lost ONE baby & that was because she got caught in the sac just minutes before I arrived...so obviously something not-so-right is going on there.

    As to the baby doeling, unfortunately I've never seen a FULL recovery from cocci when it's been that bad. I've never had cocci here as I do a more preventative route like you do too. But it's prevelent in our county and it's effects were noticeable all around at our county fair. But atleast you know that her growth issue is not genetic since the Pholia Farms lineage does not have that at all. I know her parents/grandparents better than even Poit's, and they are NOT like that at all. She'll probably stay small/stunted, and you'll need to watch her feed as her body won't be able to process feed as efficiently as a normal animal. But I know she'll get great care with you, so she should be just fine. :)

    I also do not do the other gel (Vit. A,D etc)...I have no need to use it here, as they get plently from the free-choice minerals and feed. I would just be careful that giving more of one vitamin or mineral doesn't interfere with the absortion of the necessary copper and selenium they need.
    Such as:
    -- "Molybdenum and sulfur reduce available copper. Calcium, cadmium, iron, and zinc inhibit copper's absorption. Lime, used as fertilizer, also reduces copper..."
    -- A great copper article: http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issues/ ... ealth.html
    -- "High levels of sulfur in the diet interfere with selenium absorption whereas adequate levels of calcium assists in selenium uptake."

    Good news is that I am SO HAPPY that you have these two girls with you now and are so aggressively working to help them and give them some seriously needed care & attention. I just know you will see a big improvement once the feed & supplements are corrected. :)

    Definitely try what Stacey is suggesting here... she really knows what she's talking about ... this whole forum is a wealth of information.

    ** As a side note.. I give the Selenium Gel so that I can give a smaller amount more consistently. I certainly wouldnt suggest giving a full BoSe shot every 2-3 months... but most breeders I know give it twice a year minimum... and those are top condition animals. Just an FYI, as I didn't want to confuse anyone when I said my schedule of 2-3 months. Yikes!