Breeding Question - Defective Repro System in Doe?

Discussion in 'Goat Management' started by firelight27, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Full recovery from bad coccidia can be achieved but when the condition is accompanied by other factors as she is dealing with I have to agree that she may never be totally "right" but if she does grow she could be safely bred to produce offspring that wont be as she is.

    This doe almost died from coccidia back when she was 6-8 weeks old. I battled it with her for a while after figuring out her problem. She was bred way to early but kidded fine just after her first birthday and is currently on her 4th pregnancy due later this week. Everyone told me she would be terribly stunted and never be good for anything at the time of her sickness. I think we proved them wrong ;)
    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/Ph ... 1_3981.jpg
     
  2. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Ahhhh... she's a cutie!

    I think Stacey is right, that this little girl probably has/had more than one issue going on....

    So question for ya Stacey... how often do you give BoSe? I know it's pretty specific to breeder/area, but I know people here usually do twice yearly atleast. What about back east?
     

  3. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I only give as needed. I dont use it very frequently. I have such good minerals and feed (both by southern states) I havent had a deficiency problem.
     
  4. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    BellaFire - Thank you for the information on Poit's lineage. I have seen numerous photos of her parents and grand parents and didn't understand where the heck her legs were coming from either. But those legs coupled with the fact that her kid died of white muscle disease really raised a red flag to me. Also, all of their kids are stunted. Many people have suggested being stunted due to cocci, but it doesn't seem like they had any issues with diarrhea.. I am wondering if it just isn't a nutrional/mineral deficiency more than anything else. I think I might bolus them to make sure they are getting sufficient copper. I don't see that the free choice minerals they have access to really has a super high copper content.

    The thing is that they have had goats for a year more than I have. I am certainly not an expert, and it seems to me like they have done their best to provide top of the line health care. They get their kids surgically dis-budded, grain everyone (I only grain preggo does in their last couple of month and does in milk...or kids who seem to be a little behind in their growth.) I find a bunch of grain causes more trouble than not if they are doing well without it. I guess the fact that I have a strong background in equine veterinary knowledge before getting into goats helped. There are a lot of differences in the species, obviously...but veterinary knowledge is all similar and it isn't too hard to transition when you are used to studying veterinary journals and what not. But it is still a huge learning game. Without this forum I would literally be LOST!

    I don't suspect that I would ever be able to show Poit as I doubt her legs will get tremendously better...because you are right Stacy, I think she has been deficient since birth. However, if I can get them strengthened enough to make her stronger and more comfy that will be fine for me. I will be happy having her in the breeding barn to make gorgeous babies for me!

    At this point, I don't know if I would ever be able to show Banshee either. Her conformation looks absolutely awful in the state she is in. I was looking at her today though...and if her front end caught up with her hind end (not just in height, but in size as well) and she gained some length...then she would look much, much better. I have a doeling that is the exact same age...maybe even the same exact birth day. Anyways, she is only slightly taller than Banshee. But she is much bigger for her size, if that makes sense. She has a lot of length and is capacious. She is just tiny, but her dam was a very small doe who I bought bred. The point is that she looks proportionate, and healthy. Banshee's mom was definitely bigger than that doe, and her sire is on the small size, but is by no means super tiny. At the least I can get her healthy and hopefully large enough, eventually, to breed. I should get what they were genetically capable of out of both girls even if they look a little "mutated" from their growth issues. Lol. I am going to ask some health questions of the farm and see what else I can find out about their history, and what products they use, etc.

    I had a stillborn this year, but that was out of a poorly conformed grade doe that I sold. She had trips and she just didn't have the capacity I don't think. The only other kid I've lost were due to accidents... Never had problems with sickly kids like they seem to have had. They are not breeding this year because they have had problems and can't deal with the losses.

    Oh, and you are right about the hair coats. All of mine have shiny hair, even with winter fuzz coming in. These guys coats are dull and "rough."
     
  5. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    I really am very grateful to you for taking care of these girls.
    And I can assure you that her legs or the other babies growth issue is not from their ancestors at all. (Hubba Bubba is full sibling to my gorgeous show girl "Mirage") who has absolutely NO issues with her legs or any other part for that matter, except those Aquarius off-set little teats... I'm sure you'll see those if you breed either of these girls :) . Be sure to breed to a buck that will correct teat placement/teat size. And I know Lo-La, Moonstruck, Fiesta, & Aquarius too... I don't know how much more I can say except NONE of them have any genetic leg issues.
    They just need some TLC and lots of loves :love:

    All my best wishes,
     
  6. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    Thank you! I don't know the lines well, but I really admire them. I especially like Poit's lines and I adore Aquarius and her sire, Goliath. I never could find any photos of Hubba Hubba.

    I have the perfect buck I'd like to use on both of them eventually, once they are in much better condition (and Banshee is much large..hopefully.) Nice thing is that he is only about 3 months old and needs lots of time to grow as well, and then as much time as he needs to finally get interested in the ladies. My main sire took what seemed like FOREVER to finally want to breed, and then WHAM-BAM thank you mam, he morphed into a horn-dog over night. I think he was 7 months old before he showed any true interest. The buckling I have for sale is 5 months and he is curious and confused, but won't mount anything. So if I can't get them bred at all for this year it will be fine. I was hoping maybe getting late summer kids from Poit would be nice if she is up to it by then, but we will see. Their health is more important.

    I'm glad to hear of someone familiar with the lines though! Its nice to talk to goat "conossuers". Lol. Have no idea how to spell that!
     
  7. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    Alright, so I asked about a possible selenium deficiency in the doe, and cocci possibilities or deficiencies in the kid because she seemed stunted to me. I wanted to know what their management practices were and what products they used. They seemed a little offended, although I tried to sound simply curious.

    They give loose minerals they buy from The Grange here...which is a local company that makes it's own formulations of grain, minerals, etc. They buy the "meat goat" variety and said it is specifically formulated to make up for deficiencies in the area. I never have bought grain from The Grange because the content is questionable. I want to know exactly what is in it, but it is hard to say. It seems like customized product.

    They also put ground kelp in the minerals. Goats receive BoSe in the fall and 5 weeks before kidding in the spring. Kids receive a BoSe injection at 3 days old. They worm with herbal wormers. Personally I don't put any stock in herbal remedies... Then they worm once a year with Safeguard. She said they have "funny milking stories about worms coming out of the system after a Safeguard dose." I have never had worms in my doe's milk. That just doesn't seem like it should be happening.

    She insists that they work very closely with a vet and do exactly what he says, and that he says Safeguard is great and would have mentioned potential resistance or a selenium deficiency in Poit. I think her vet sounds iffy....The mineral/BoSe schedule they follow is the one their vet gave them.

    They said they do preventative cocci treatment with Dimethox (never heard of it... is it good?) but had some diarrhea issues after weaning this year. They treated with a heavier dose of Dimethox at that point, but the diarrhea took two weeks to clear up.

    They feed goat grain from The Grange as well and only to adults. The kids only get a handful at night as a snack. That is all she could think of to tell us for their management.

    How does it sound to you? It doesn't sound bad, but I am thinking that perhaps the brands of minerals/feeds from the Grange could be iffy (I don't generally trust them because of lack of information and because it isn't used widely enough to receive enough feedback...) and I don't know about their cocci regime.

    They also said that all of their kids are very tiny and don't reach full size until at least a year, and insist most of Piddlin Acres kids are like that...They said the only "normal" sized kids they ever have are from Poit's dad (Goliath.)
     
  8. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    to answer a few things

    The worms they were seeing were problem in their poops and would be tapeworms.

    BoSe schedule sounds fine for adults but kids should get it when first born or only on an as needed basis.

    Dimethox is a good coccidia medication but needs to be individually dosed and not just put in the water like vets recommend and is on the label.

    Kids should get grain till they are a year old for proper growth. Sounds like they might not be getting a wholesome nutrition.

    Over all Poit has some kind of issue of deficiency or bone growth from improper hoof trimmings.

    and another thought -- I never want to give someone the short stick - but remember just because someone says "this is my schedule of treatment" doesnt mean they follow through with it with all their animals.

    Did they own Poit from birth or at least a young age?
     
  9. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Again, nothing against them... and "on paper" it sounds like a good program but that doesnt mean in anyway that it was actually DONE. And don't get me wrong, I have 4 different vets and I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE each of them...but even the vet I have for the goats I work with 50/50 (my input/his input = decision) because goats just don't get a whole lotta "vet time" to keep vet's informed & up to date on stuff.
    And no, Piddlin Acres kids don't look like that at any point. I think she'd probably be 'not happy' to hear that. I have Piddlin Acres sired babies (a set of triplets actually) and the doeling is exactly the same size & structure of the other doelings with completely different breeding.
    As to Poit, I've had my hands & eyes on more than half of her lineage... Pholia Farms helped us start showing ADGA, we've helped them show & visited the farm lots, bought goats & show goats from them, super nice people, incredibly nice goats, and NONE have legs anything like that at all.
    I don't think anything intentional happened at all... I think misinformation and/or lack of knowledge was the issue. But the important thing is that YOU can do all you can to help these girls. It's not their fault, it's not a genetic fault, and they need to be loved and cared for in a better way. Again, I truly believe you will see a big improvement with these girls after some aggressive care & patience. I think you'll see a change sooner than you think if you get started right away. Worming, cocci treatment, BoSe or Sel Gel, proper hay (good grass/alfalfa), proper goat grain, etc. Watch their hooves and coats and you'll see improvement. I just can't tell you how happy I am to see them find you!

    PS DiMethox 12.5% or 40% is a great cocci treatment and has been noted as very effective in our area. But Cocci treatment MUST be done individually and not just dumped in the water like the labels say. Don't even know why they say that?!?!
     
  10. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Oh and I feed a local feed called Ultra Show Goat and it's better than ANY other "big name" brand I've tried. I would just be sure to get a feed that is specifically made for goats... and I'd probably not get whatever feed they were previously on, even if it was for goats...because obviously it didn't have what they needed.
     
  11. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    I'm glad to hear the response from both of you. I was just starting to feel bad about having all these doubts about their care, because I really like the people and they seem to do a lot for their goats. I think they rely too heavily on advice from a vet who doesn't know much about goats. Like you said, Bellafire....vets don't seem to spend a lot of time really studying up on goats, on any new advances, etc.

    I always dose Cocci treatment with a syringe according to weight. Dumping in the water just seemed really stupid to me. Lol.

    I might have to give in and buy a giant thing of Valbazen. I have been trying to find a smaller container that doesn't treat fifty freaking cows, but I can only find it online and I don't want to wait for it to ship because I want to get rid of tapes immediately if they have an issue with them. Started the cocci treatment today and will be doing it for the next few days. Picked up some alfalfa pellets to mix in with their grain...and yeah, I'm staying away from the Grange stuff. They don't have labels on their feed and I think that is a big no-no.
     
  12. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Cocci = 5 days minimum.
    We use this dosage: Kids get dimethox 40% at a rate of 1cc per 5 lbs on day one, then 1cc per 10 lbs from day 2-5. Best to treat @ 3, 6, 9 weeks of age as a preventative. For a kid that is already having issues I would use a bit more than 1cc each day for 5-7 days.
    Also, Cocci is everywhere and many goats have it to some degree...it's just that the older goats build up an immunity to it, hence why the babies get so sick w/diarhea...you're baby girl probably still has it but her body eventually built up a balance to the high level of cocci in her system (probably the same with Poit too). But that doesn't mean it's not destroying their digestive system so I wouldnt hesitate to treat them both aggressively for Cocci.

    Also, Valbazen is expensive but yes it will last FOREVER if you've only got a little herd...and it's a good excuse to have babies around :p ya-know, something like... "But honey, I have so much of the Valbazen and I don't want to waste it! So we'll need a few more momma's & babies" :ROFL: Funny thing is...I'm SO CHEAP & AGAINST WASTING STUFF that I could probably say that with a straight face in my house!!! LOL!
     
  13. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    I just keep trying to convince my husband that the goats cost next to nothing to feed (and I am referring to hay only, in comparison to our horses), and thus next to nothing to take care of at all. When in actuality I don't mention all the costs of medications, shots, minerals, goat specific grain, etc. Lol

    I give Cocci treatments according to the dosage recommended for Sulmet on Fiasco Farms website. It is 5 days as well. I can't remember the exact dosage off of the top of my head. I always have to open up my laptop and double check every time I go down to the barn to use it. I think it is the same, 1cc per 5 pds on day one, and 1 cc per 10 for the remainder.

    We now have 6 does, 3 bucks (working on selling or leasing one), and possibly one more doe on the way if I get my 3rd buck sold. We have had up to ten does at once I think (not counting kids in the spring.) I sold all of my grade does this year (except one), so I could focus on show quality, registered stock.

    We also have 3 dogs and a cat. We have two horses, with a foal on the way (my mare is preggers! :), and I was just offered an amazing gelding if I trade my spiffy horse trailer for a smaller straight load (the gelding comes along with it to even the deal.) I might have to get a second job here soon. :)
     
  14. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    jeffers is real fast with shipping and you can get 500mls for I think its 35.00 and that will last you a LONG time too.

    Im no sure I would dose the 40% Dimethox at 1cc per 5lbs. Thats the dosage for the 12.5% and to jump so quickly to using the 40% in the same manor leaves very little to go to once the coccidia become immune to the lower %.
     
  15. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Stacey is right that is the dosage for the 12.5% ... I'm just switching over to using the 40% for this coming spring so I have to re-do my notes.
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I do believe the 12.5% is 125mg per ml and the 40% is 400mg per ml.

    So if I did my math right it would be 1ml per 16lbs with the 40% (to administer the same mg of Dimethox as the 12.5% at 1ml per 5lbs)
     
  17. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Wow, thank you for the dosages Stacey! I'll update my notes. And I'm so happy I didn't have to do the math! :stars: Yippee!
     
  18. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    well im not 100% sure i did it right but it seems to look right ;)
     
  19. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    I found that my local feed store carries Purina goat feeds and loose Purina goat minerals. They must be hiding them somewhere, because I scouted through that place looking for the products and never saw them the first time. I don't think I will bolus or give any selenium gel for awhile. Both the Purina Goat Chow and the Purina minerals have plenty of selenium and copper. My goats still have the Champion's Choice selenium mineral block they can lick off of also (they have used it very sparingly since I put it back within their reach because they have the loose minerals, which they adore.)

    So we shall see how they start looking with the minerals and Purina grain (and the A/E/D/B12 gel coming from Jeffers.) Most of Purina's goat feeds have 16% protein, which I really like. If the store carries Purina Noble products I'll probably get the Grower 16 instead. And I don't think I'll add alfalfa pellets, since these are complete feeds with added calcium in a specific calcium/phosphorus ratio. I don't think I want to mess with the science they have already put into it. I like that Grower 16 has ammonium chloride to help with urinary calculi. Might be nice to feed my boys during breeding season. You can also buy it medicated to help prevent cocci, with either rumensin or decoquinate in it. Does the cocci prevention stuff in the feed really work? It sounds nice.