Bucks with Defects

Discussion in 'Goat Management' started by OhCee, May 9, 2010.

  1. Yes!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No!

    3.3%
  3. Maybe?

    80.0%
  4. I don't know...

    16.7%
  1. OhCee

    OhCee Yak Lady

    609
    Feb 26, 2010
    Western MT
    Okay, I'm sure everyone has different opinions on this, but for those who breed to your own bucks- do you breed a buck even if he has defects? Like extra/spur teats in dairy breeds, or something equally undesirable. If you notice a breed defect, do you wether him, or do you write it off to "Its recessive so it doesn't matter."

    I met someone with a buck out of some great lines before I got my buck (who I love and wouldn't give up for this one). Went to see him and I noticed a teat spur and he said "Well he doesn't come with papers unless you want them, but I want him to go to a breeding home" I don't know why people want so bad for bucks they raise to be bred regardless of quality/defects. I asked why and he said he just liked him and his lines and the defect probably wouldn't get passed on... at least not to his kids (but possibly the grandkids based upon recessive genetics).

    I was going to get him, but I couldn't get over the teat spur.

    Anyway- I just want to know if it's considered "normal" to ignore defects like that in bucks, but not does? Or do you never ignore them? :whatgoat:
    I personally inspect my Nigis for spare and spur teats closely before I buy them...

    Thanks... :type: Just trying to figure out what others in the goatie world do. :laugh:
     
  2. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    Ick! No way. Any animal born here that has a defect (thankfully only one kid had a teat spur) is sold to be strictly a pet, no papers to be turned over at all. While I cannot prevent the person from breeding a doe later on, I do my best to find someone not interested in breeding at all. We have only dairy goats and teat structure is very important. I know with Boer goats, it's a little different, I think. :scratch:

    Bucks can/will produce many, many more offspring than a doe ever could so it's even more important to be sure they are free of defects and have correct conformation.
     

  3. CrossCreekTX

    CrossCreekTX New Member

    356
    Aug 10, 2009
    Central East Texas
    Absolutely would not breed him. Why breed one with a defect when there are so many better ones in the world?
     
  4. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    I completely agree - however, the difference for me, is that doelings with defects are culled immediately - never sold....... so they are usually raised up for butcher. I can't see sending a dairy goat out that has a defect that i know that one day down the road they WILL be bred..... it is just a fact. the person may say now that they are not going to, but you know it will happen.

    Bucklings, I will casterate and sell as pets.

    Even as "pets" i think that the breed should be the best that it can be, and even if the offspring produced from a parent with a defect, doesn't have one - it is still in the lines and could show later.
     
  5. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Besides, word will get around that you sold a defective animal. You want to protect your name too.
     
  6. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator Supporting Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    Would never use a buck with a defect like that. The others have made great comments already.
     
  7. Idahodreamer

    Idahodreamer Senior Member

    No. When you buy a buck you are looking for something that will set off an explosion of good conformation in the next generation of kids. If you have a lot of does, that buck is either going to change the progeny of your herd for the better or for the worse. A good buck has his weight in gold, and when chosing one I am ten times more serious and anxious than when I am buying a future addition to my doe herd. Bad bucks can ruin your herd and your herd's name!!! Especially if you're dairy . . . .
    ;) just my two cents . . ..
     
  8. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Even selling a defect buck as "pet quality" buck is not good for the breed...... because if they leave intact / sold as intact - they are being used for breeding and passing on the genes. Even if it doesn't show in the immediate progeny - it can show in later generations.
     
  9. Idahodreamer

    Idahodreamer Senior Member


    I think it's defects are defects regardless of gender---- so no I would not buy a doe with a spur or spare teat and if I did she would be butchered pretty quick....for eating . . . . I personally feel that bucks with defects are a bigger threat to your herd then a doe ---- a doe will only affect one or two or three kids, not even---- a buck will affect almost your entire herd!!!
     
  10. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    I'm sure there will be others that feel the same way as me but I cannot kill a goat. My choice of "culling" is finding a pet home (whether that be with an adoption fee or free). There are LOTS of people (around here anyways) that do not want to breed goats and want them strictly for pets/brush eaters.
     
  11. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    I do butcher goats here, but it is food for the family. They are not killed and discarded.

    The problem with pet homes, is will the person truly keep that animal as a "pet" until they die, or will they sell them in a few years .... that is where my concern is. I sold a "pet" only doe - that a year later got a picture text of look at the babies that she just had - never again..... with this doe, it was just because she was so small that I didn't want her bred ...
     
  12. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    You cant register any offspring from a nonregistered nigieran buck ever so that doesnt hold water.

    I think you made your point well Allison that you think culling should mean butcher and that its your opinion do to so.


    I personally would not use a buck who has any defect of any kind. I also will not keep a doe with papers who has a defect of any kind. The doe will not be registered and therefor her kids can not be as well so therefore the breedlines are protected and will never be tainted with a defect. This is in the nigerian breed only. With standard dairy goats they can be registered as experimental/grade but if there is a defect of any kind the registry will not accept them.
     
  13. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    This is when you get the bander out or whatever method you use if you are selling them for any reason except the table.

    I think what Allison was saying was that the defects could show up down the line.
     
  14. OhCee

    OhCee Yak Lady

    609
    Feb 26, 2010
    Western MT
    So would you breed a doe out of registered parents who isn't registered herself because she has a defect that makes her unregisterable?

    Some people are concerned with their own bloodlines, yes. But some are just plain concerned with not passing on recessive alleles for defects to make every offspring of the tainted animal a carrier... I don't see how simply not papering a doe with a spur teat solves any problems. Is it acceptable for unregistered Nigerians to have defects?
     
  15. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    With meat goats or land management brushers breeders..... all they want is more numbers of goats and the quality or defects are never an issue..... In those situations... it is understandable.... they can't go out and buy... expensive faultless animals to do so..... they buy unregistered cheap goats......

    I am not saying... I like defects... I won't breed to them myself.....as I strive for Show quality animals.... but ...we have to remember.... that there are those that defects mean nothing....and they... will never be registered..... So it all depends on... what a breeder is planning on doing... with their herd.. :wink:
     
  16. OhCee

    OhCee Yak Lady

    609
    Feb 26, 2010
    Western MT
    Haha! Well I don't band OTHER people's animals without permission ;) But I would've if it was an option for sure.

    And yes, I believe Allison was talking about how a recessive defect is passed on and shows later in the line. Anyone who knows genetics and Punnet squares will understand how a homozygous recessive (exhibits defect) "tt" parent and even a homozygous dominant (non-carrier) "TT" parent will have ALL "Tt" kids. Making every single offspring a carrier of the recessive allele (100% of the time). If the homozygous dominant parent were heterozygous, half of the offspring (statistically, not a for sure) will exhibit the undesirable characteristic "tt" and the other half will simply carry it on.
     
  17. OhCee

    OhCee Yak Lady

    609
    Feb 26, 2010
    Western MT
    I totally get that. Teat number/placement really doesn't matter if the goat's in the freezer program heh. I don't know anything about meat, which is why i just kinda did a blanket statement for non-dairy breeds of "equally undesirable" traits.. which there may not even be in meat or fiber goats? I don't know. But if there is something that is a defect in other types of goats, too- the same concept applies.

    I know there are plenty of defects that truly don't affect an animal's end quality, but in the diary breeds, teat defects seem to be a very serious thing, whereas in meat goats- who cares? lol It really is all about what the breeder wants for their herd.

    I was just trying to see how people deal with animals that display recessive defects, and if they are seen as a serious issue, or not so much... I have learned that everyone has their own way of doing things, but given the poll response, I don't think everyone's responding? I'm sure there's someone out there who will breed an animal who has a spur teat and market the animals as pets? Maybe not on this board as everyone seems to agree? I dunno, I was expecting a more varied response. to the question.
     
  18. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Stacey, unfortunately, there are registries that will take NON AGS or ADGA animals - NMGA and also the IDGA - will register these animals and people breed specifically for these registries to say that they "are registered". So yes, I have an issue with allowing an animal with a defect to be allowed to keep reproducing. AGS, ADGA, or anyother registry or no registry - should not be breeding if there is a genetic defect. Yes that is my opinion - but that is how the Nigerian came to be recognized was the "founding herd" along with others such as Kinders, Tennessee Fainters, and so on - all started from a founding line - so why keep the bad traits in the lines?
     
  19. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    alright I am about to close this topic if people dont just settle down a bit!

    State your opinion and leave it!!!!
     
  20. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Stacey, I did state my opinion and leave it - you mentioned the registry, so I wanted to make sure that others know that they CAN be registered under others ..... so that is something that has to be considered also......