[OhCee]

Ok, I'm just trying to figure out if I'm reading opinions right and asking for confirmation. Sometimes it can be unclear what someone's trying to say and it's better to ask and get it from them, than assume my interpretation of their words is right.

It's really hard to know what people are saying when they use vague wording, so I'm just trying to clear it up. You don't have to respond to my question if you don't want, but I figured I would give you the chance at least, because your response is actually different than the typical response I'm getting and I find it interesting.

Clearly not everyone is answering the poll, so I'm trying to take into account the text answers also.

 

[StaceyRosado]

I personally would not use a buck who has any defect of any kind. I also will not keep a doe with papers who has a defect of any kind. The doe will not be registered and therefor her kids can not be as well so therefore the breedlines are protected and will never be tainted with a defect.

So would you breed a doe out of registered parents who isn't registered herself because she has a defect that makes her unregisterable? when I was breeding for pets yes I did breed does with minimal defects in the teat structure. These does could not be registered. They were mixbreed pets.

Some people are concerned with their own bloodlines, yes. But some are just plain concerned with not passing on recessive alleles for defects to make every offspring of the tainted animal a carrier... I don't see how simply not papering a doe with a spur teat solves any problems. Is it acceptable for unregistered Nigerians to have defects? an unregistered goat can be anything you want it to be -- there is no set standared for unregistered goats. Now a defect can sometimes inhibit a goats ability to grow right or take care of her kids properly etc. But who am I to tell you how to raise your goats and handle your herd when its pet only.

You wont be tainting any registered lines or the breed standard -for nigerian dwarfs specifically - if breeding even if you do register with any other registry as mentioned by kelebek because those registries are not recognized in the purebred nigerian dwarf world for showing and breeding. Their offspring will never be AGS or ADGA registrable and allowed into the herd book.

I know of several people who breed for pet only and have chosen to breed goats with minimal show defects. These defects do not hurt the goat in anyway but the goat can not be shown with it. Even some colors are considered a defect in different breeds as well as the lack or the appearance of a roman nose etc. Everyone's reasoning for breeding goats is different so its hard to say across the board - its wrong to do XY&Z

Would I do it? with registered no. have I done it? yes. do I judge others who do? NO

 

[nancy d]

Ok I will try. Keep in mind I know nada about Nigies as we do mostly Boers.
There really are different ways of doing this depending on goals.
Personally I would never send an intact out into the world with a known defect. I have sent a buckling out I knew he would feed the family & he had cluster teats. It has not shown up since.
Sure you have your pet people out there who might not give a rip if the goat has four eyes three legs and not playing with a full deck.

I have not seen anything stated worthy of settling down but then again I can be pretty insensitive. :wink:

For Boers, in the ring, she must have clean teats, whether its two or four.
She can have a split teat (haha we are splitting teats now) but it has to be I forget how seperate but I have seen them take the blues with split teats.

 

[nancy d]

Furthermore, I kept a doe here for 3 yrs who never settled. It took that long to finally see her short dippy back.
Breed standards know what they are talking about. Even if you never show there are reasons behind them.

 

[Epona142]

Okay, going to go out on a limb here.

I'm taking a very fine buck in soon. Very nice who has thrown some gorgeous kids. Why am I getting him?

Because he has a small teat spur.

He will not come with his papers, and I will not be allowing any bucklings out of him to remain intact. I breed for the pet market. Color, size, temperament, those are all hugely important. Teat structure, not so much. I do milk my own does, and even had a doe with a teat spur (Cowbell.) She was my best milker before being retired and moving on to a petting zoo. None of her kids exhibited the trait.

If it was something detrimental to the goat's health, no way would I allow the goat to remain intact. But this isn't, and in my market, makes no difference. Very few of my goats are registered, my kids are unregistered, and we don't show. So it's okay for us.

Do I completely understand and respect the other side of this debate? Yes! If I was showing and breeding for show, I wouldn't be using this buck.

So that's the other side of it, and I do hope no one loses respect for my position on it.

 

[liz]

Registered dairy for show or milk I would not breed if either buck or doe showed teat defects.
I do however have cross goats and each freshened doe gets milked, regardless of wether they are PB or crosses.... My Registered does ( 1 will be a FF next year) may not have "perfect" udders BUT I do love easily milked and very capacious udders, Defects of teat structure are not acceptable in PB to me, however my pygmy buck does have an extra teat...and because his kids are pets only I don't mind it because he produces very sweet and very small pets. Bucklings are always wethered and doelings are pets only. And, I have 2 of his does here from different dams, neither have an extra teat and only one is a "pet maker", she has passed on that extra teat to 2 of her 5 kids.

An extra teat in a pet is not detrimental because that pet is not being bred to pass it on. I feel the same way as far as the legs and feet go...a severe "toe in or toe out" should not be used as breeding stock simply because it can be crippling to the animal and is a trait that is genetic.

 

[nancy d]

Epona you stated your position well! You are breeding for the pet market. Im breeding for meat. Others commercial.
There's all kinds of needs & wants out there & we all fit in.
For us if someone happens to be showable its just icing on the cake.

 

[Galavanting Goat]

Okay, going to go out on a limb here.

I'm taking a very fine buck in soon. Very nice who has thrown some gorgeous kids. Why am I getting him?

Because he has a small teat spur.

He will not come with his papers, and I will not be allowing any bucklings out of him to remain intact. I breed for the pet market. Color, size, temperament, those are all hugely important. Teat structure, not so much. I do milk my own does, and even had a doe with a teat spur (Cowbell.) She was my best milker before being retired and moving on to a petting zoo. None of her kids exhibited the trait.

If it was something detrimental to the goat's health, no way would I allow the goat to remain intact. But this isn't, and in my market, makes no difference. Very few of my goats are registered, my kids are unregistered, and we don't show. So it's okay for us.

Do I completely understand and respect the other side of this debate? Yes! If I was showing and breeding for show, I wouldn't be using this buck.

So that's the other side of it, and I do hope no one loses respect for my position on it.

Epona, i'm with you on this one, we use our girls for milk, their extra teats are of no issue to us, it doesn't make them any less of whom they are because they are different, at least not in our eyes.
We also have rescue goats come in, not just goats of low rank but goats that at one stage held high status position, so neglect and passing a goat off doesn't just happen to unregistered or backyard bred goats.

If we had a bub born with a defect that would be a danger to its health causing it to suffer then yes, we would put its welfare first and have it put out of it's misery.

We spend many hours and big $$$ on our rescues and milk does, as many do on their prize milkers etc but both types have their ways and reasons for doing things, and yet i'm sure both types love them just as much as each other, at least I hope they would.

We have a doeling here that has fish teats, for some this would be a serious issue to deal with especially in the show ring, but for us, she is just one of many blessings in our lives, if we had've culled her we would have missed out on so much of what she offers us.

 

[Idahodreamer]

Let me just say that I never meant to push my ideals on anybody---I was just stating my oppinion about how it would go if it was me.
Everyone has a program for their herd. I respect that and I think they are all great. My program is to breed registered dairy goats that excell both in the milking area and in the showring and have wonderful loving temperaments to boot. Epona raises pet quality goats that bring joy to many families and help weed and brush farms.....
ray: forgive me for coming across wrongly.

 

[KW Farms]

I read Olivia's response and was like...exactly!

We have yet to have a defect like a teat spur, but if that should happen the goat will be banded or a doe will be sold to a pet home, no papers, and the parent(s) may be sold. I don't think culling by butchering is a good choice for dairy breeds especially the little nigies... nigerians you really won't get much meat off of a doe so even growing the kid up and fattening it for butcher seems like a big waste of money and space. There are plenty of people out there looking for pet goats and if they do end up breeding that isn't a big deal. The goat isn't registered...it will be in a pet market where little flaws like that don't really matter. I much rather give or sell to a home that just wants some little goats for pets than to butcher.

Call me soft, but every goat deserves a good home and if there is one out there why not just go that route. After all, we did bring it into the world. But don't get me wrong, if you are breeding to butcher that is great, I don't disagree with it...I love my meat, but I think for something like a nigerian it isn't hard to find a good pet home at a discounted price.

 

[goathappy]

A few years ago I bought a buck, I had looked all over for these specific lines and I was so happy when I got him. When his kids started hitting the ground I was even more excited, they were just so gorgeous, long, level and ohso dairy. He had pretty much fixed most of the conformational faults that my does had.......and added a fault of his own. He didn't have extra teats but 6 of his 11 kids did. I was so devastated. He had to be put down for medical reasons but I was so tempted to keep his only daughter. It was tempting because she was just a gorgeous doeling, but in the end I had to make the tough decision and decide that regardless of how great the lines were, how awesome she looked, I couldn't keep a clear conscience and keep that doe kid knowing that her progeny could possibly be carrying that defect. So she unfortunately went to the butcher along with her brothers.

Personally I think that any dairy animal with a defect should be culled from the herd and not used for breeding, even if it is sold as a pet. I am talking about standard sized dairy goats here though, because unlike nigis, an unregistered standard doe can be registered as NOA even if she has a defect and the offspring can be registered and bred up to american status. Goats with defects can still be registered, because nobody checks for defects unless the animal is being shown. Due to some bad experiences with pet buyers, we now butcher all of our culls, regardless of age or sex. The guy who I sold my last pair of pet does to last year called me last week asking if we had anymore does for sale because the pair that I sold him died :angry: :veryangry: :angry: :veryangry:

 

[Perfect7]

I voted yes because I always see in shades of gray. It depends on the type of defect, I guess. If it's four teats, I've since learned it's okay for boers to have them and two of our three boers do. Now since we are raising primarily for meat goats, I would love to find a goat with five legs...six would be even better!
But on a serious note, there are lots of "defects" like not a completely straight topline, or maybe a little down in the pasterns in the back...something that could have been caused by being cramped in mama's belly. I'd venture to say that every single goat has a defect of some sort: hooves that need trimmed too often, not parasite resistant enough, doesn't gain weight and grow fast enough, horns not the perfect shape, ears not long enough or not short enough, short lactating period, not enough milk a day, etc.
If I was breeding dairy goats and teats were very important to the goat's purpose (milking), then I wouldn't breed for those defects. That would make as much sense as getting meat goats that grow very slow and are lanky. :wink:

 

[MiGoat]

It's kind of interesting on some of the big meat goat websites more than two teat is a good thing! Not so dairy goats...why is that? Why would you not want another teat? Because there isn't another chamber and it just has more chance of infection? I know why in meat goats you don't mind more than two...more than two babies can eat at the same time! LOL
A teat spur is like another little thing off a teat?

 

[goathappy]

I have had experience with boers and the extra teats usually are non functioning, therefore you can't nurse more than two kids at a time. With dairy goats, extra teats(or spurs, which are teat like things that shoot off the side or top of the main teat) are non functioning, and therefore get in the way when you are milking, whether its by hand or machine. In my personal opinion, extra teats also look stupid on a dairy goat since they're just hanging out there and not doing anything, it really doesn't give the udder a clean and defined look when you have extra teats. Its about appearance as much as it is usability.

 

[nancy d]

Goathappy is mostly right, alot of Boers have two that arent functioning. I have one with 4 working teats & one of her daughters also has 4 working.

 

[7acreranch]

Define defect and what your plan is for your operation. If you are raising meat goats for butcher or even 4h wethers what many may define as defects are not relative to the operation.

 

[OhCee]

Define defect and what your plan is for your operation. If you are raising meat goats for butcher or even 4h wethers what many may define as defects are not relative to the operation.

I figured the "equally undesirable" statement took care of that issue, but if it's that important that I get specific to meat also, which I know very little about... How about cow hocks or weak pasterns, which DO affect meat breed development and tone?

 

[goathappy]

I don't think that cow hocks and weak pasterns would effect meat development and tone, but faults such as those(which can be easily bred out) shorten the productive life of an animal. A doe with weak pasterns for example may not be able to carry her kids as easily as she gets older, which could lead to her slowing down during pregnancy, which in turn could lead to things such as ketosis, milk fever etc. And also structural faults are not necessarily hereditary but can be the result of poor management choices, but those structural faults that are hereditary like I said before can be easily bred out with the right genetics.

 

[OhCee]

I've never heard of poor leg conformation having zero affect on muscle tone... First time for everything.

 

[goathappy]

well i can't say for certain that it doesn't effect muscle tone, I don't remember since I never payed that close of attention to conformation when we had the boers I do remember that our main sire was cow hocked but he was still well muscled and so were his kids, so I'm not sure :shrug: