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Would/Do you breed a buck with a defect?

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I breed rare poultry. Many of the breeds have been kept going by back yard breeders who don't hatch a lot of young each year. Because of this and the fact that many refuse to cull hard, the breeds are dying out due to poor hatchability and viability. They've been medicated and bred, even though they are not "thrifty doers". The only way to bring these breeds back is to cull and cull hard. I've butchered many a bird that other people would have kept, but that gives me strong, healthy breeders. By culling all the weaker birds, I have more resources to give to the others and can breed greater numbers. If my coops and pens are full of substandard birds I cannot breed for better birds.

I don't think breeding goats is any different, except you aren't dealing with the sheer numbers that you do with poultry.

I don't condemn anybody for not culling if they don't pass a defective animal to someone else that might breed it. Once that animal leaves your farm, you have no control over what happens to it.
 

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That did remind me....I do have to say... that with ...the "meat goat industry".... there is a shortage....the meat is high in demand and there isn't enough goats to provide the demand.... So defects should mean nothing especially in.... the world of meat..... :wink:

It all depends on ...what breed ...what an individual is striving to do with them....
so......no one... is in the wrong.... if you want the true facts.... because we all do cull.... here and there...for many different reasons.... and no one individual goat will even be 100% no flaw producer...it always seems to appear from somewhere in the pedigree.... it's a little hit and miss...anywayz... :wink: :thumb:
 

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Yes, but aren't you culling when you send a goat to market for meat? You are only keeping the best for breeders.

I agree that different people cull for different things. I never keep an animal that gets wormy or one that has a bad temperament. I don't feed a lot of grain and if the goat needs a lot of grain to be productive, I don't keep her. They have access to more high quality grass and browse than they could possibly eat and I need them to utilize that. Other people need goats that can do well dry lotted because they can buy feed but have no acreage to grow their own.
 

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Yes, but aren't you culling when you send a goat to market for meat? You are only keeping the best for breeders.

I agree that different people cull for different things. I never keep an animal that gets wormy or one that has a bad temperament. I don't feed a lot of grain and if the goat needs a lot of grain to be productive, I don't keep her. They have access to more high quality grass and browse than they could possibly eat and I need them to utilize that. Other people need goats that can do well dry lotted because they can buy feed but have no acreage to grow their own.
My does.. only get grain... every once in a while.... mine are easy keepers..... they may look like I do ..but... I don't...... the only time they get thin looking is when.... we dry them up....at weaning time....but... it doesn't take long.... for them to pick up on their weight..... They are on Irrigated pasture....and get thrown hay and given grain once in a while .....

yes... I do cull and keep the very best.... but I do have to admit... I do have 1 beautiful doe...with a teat spur.. that has given me perfect teated babies and their babies have been perfect also....some are lucky and not produce them...or maybe pop out with them... once in a while.....while with other goats ...that is all they throw..........you just never know...... :shrug:
With some breeders it means nothing ...as to others... it means everything...and I respect that...because yes ...I strive for the best too.......this topic keeps going and going and going... back and forth and no one is giving in ..... I completely understand and respect both sides... :p
 

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Inheritable traits are so facinating! I hear this & that & only have a little experience to draw from. That & my goat friends.
We like the 4 teats round here especially if they are functioning! A good friend of mine insists on only breeding for 2.
This yr we used who I was told was a 2 teated buck. We got plenty 4 teated doelings, some of them even appear like they could be working.
My 2 teated % with a spur threw a 75% 4 teated doeling.
I must confess though, the first time I saw 4 teats I was horrified, didnt know they were originally created that way in the Boer world.
 

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Inheritable traits are so facinating! I hear this & that & only have a little experience to draw from. That & my goat friends.
We like the 4 teats round here especially if they are functioning! A good friend of mine insists on only breeding for 2.
This yr we used who I was told was a 2 teated buck. We got plenty 4 teated doelings, some of them even appear like they could be working.
My 2 teated % with a spur threw a 75% 4 teated doeling.
I must confess though, the first time I saw 4 teats I was horrified, didnt know they were originally created that way in the Boer world.
HeHe...yep.....now they allow them in the ABGA ...2x2 clean.... it took a while of being convinced.. that they are well worth their use..in gold and to recognize that boers ...do have trips or quads and with the extra pipping...makes it more logical... :thumb:

I like the 2x2 working spickets...as well ....with the boers ....especially if they have trips or quads.... I don't ever have to bottle feed ...it is so great...the boers that have trips... can handle all 3 ....my boer kids.. are always full and very healthy.... I have to admit.... they are a bit odd looking ....when you see them the 1st time... :wink: :greengrin:
 

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I guess it would depend on the defect. With the buck, never. Does, to me, it would depend on what it was. Like blue eyes in a breed that didn't allow them, is a defect, but if you are using the doe for milk, and selling the unregistered babies as pets, does it matter? (i'm honestly asking, i don't know for sure) Is that perpetuating a defect? The animals on my farm are either useful, or in the favored pet status after years of service, or they are culled.

I was thinking it was kind of like my chickens. I get SO MANY boys, that I can be really picky about which ones i keep (of course it is easy for me to cull a roo, i don't think i could bring myself to cull a buck the same way - i'd just band them, and sell for a pet) With the hens, if they have a defect that could be passed on, like a silky with only 4 toes, or pink skin, I don't breed them, but i do use them for pets, eggs, and brooding.
 

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We just had our own experience with this and I have to say that I would not judge anybody for making whatever choice they felt was right for their own situation as I know we had to make some very tough decisions and it was not easy.

We started off with a few unregistered Nigis for home milkers and pets, then went to a couple of shows and got hooked. So we started building our own foundation herd from some of the best herds we could find. We brought in animals from Piddlin Acres, Pecan Hollow, Lost Valley, etc... Our first crop of home-bred kids hit the ground this Spring and we were very excited to finally have some with OUR herd-name on them. We decided to retain a polled buckling out of our best doe and had 2 other bucklings whose dam had a nice enough udder to justify selling them as bucks. There was another buckling that we decided to band because his dam's 2F udder just wasn't good enough that we felt he should be kept intact. Then we had a single doeling, also out of our best doe that we retained.

At our first buck show, we brought along the retained buckling and his sire, who was the first registered buck we bought. He came from a very reputable breeder, excellent bloodlines, etc. His breeder checks over all of the kids she sells very thoroughly and guarantees them free of any disqualifying defects.

So, we took him to the show, and in the first ring we walked into the judge found a spur teat (silly me, I had not checked his teats since he was a baby). Since we were very close on numbers for sanction, the judge let us stay in and placed us last. To make sure that there were enough animals to make sanction, I did not scratch him from the remaining rings and none of the other judges even noticed the teat. In those rings he placed 3rd place twice and 1st place once against some very tough competition, so his overall conformation is good...there was just the one stupid fault.

Thankfully the breeder was WONDERFUL about it and immediately offered to replace him. We paid extra to 'upgrade' to a buckling out of a finished champion doe. That part was easy, what was not easy was making the decision to have to band ALL of the Spring bucklings, including the one I wanted to keep. Just felt awful to scrap everything and go back to the drawing board.

But, we want to be competitive eventually and maintain a good reputation, so all the buckings got the big green cheerio. The little doeling we retained will probably end up as a pet in our herd as I don't want to sell her. Beau is going to Epona, as she had admired his lovely color and personality and was willing to take him, faults and all, since she breeds for pet and brush management. He will be going without his papers so that his fault does not taint any future lines of show animals.

Now, I know some people may not agree with that last part, but I was not willing to send him to market as BBQ and paying around $150 to have my vet neuter him was not something I wanted to do either when a pet wether sells for $50 around here if you are lucky...and that's pushing it when you are talking about an adult wether who is not longer little and cute.

My feeling on defects is that I firmly believe that people breed/raise goats for different purposes and various defects can be more or less detrimental depending on what purpose they have for those animals. In the case of showing dairy animals or selling them for milk production, a teat spur is a BIG deal...for a pet that is going to hang out in the yard and eat brush or a meat goat, overall health, temperament, color, etc... may be something that breeder finds more important.

And then there are those that take in the unwanted, 'special' goats and appreciate them for their differences...and I don't think there is anything wrong with that either.

In our case, we set out with the goals of having competitive show animals that excel in the showring and in the milk parlour, so we won't be using any animals with serious defects in our own breeding program and we strive to breed in a way that improves any less-serious defects down the line. What others choose to do is their decision and I respect that.

The only caveat I would add is that I would hope that a breeder would be honest about any defects present when they sell their kids. That way it gives their buyers the choice to decide whether they are comfortable bringing an animal into their own herd. You'll notice that the better breeders will tell you not just the good points of their animals, but will also point out what areas need work.
 

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Excellent post Cyanne. As you pointed out, if anyone hadn't already figured it out before, I am taking Beau and he will be a great addition to our little herd of pets and home milkers.
 

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I have to agree...Cyanne you make some very good points and I too am one that know each of my kids from the nose to the tail and am very upfront with buyers, even the pets, on any defects they have. Most don;'t even pay mind to a wether with 3 teats...he's a pet, nothing more.
 
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