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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just need to vent for a moment. In the process of expanding my herd this summer I was in contact with a LOT of people selling goats, some with national reputations, some not.

I heard a LOT of BS from people, so I just want to throw this out there and hopefully save others some trouble.

#1 most popular baloney I heard "My herd is CAE, CL and Johnes negative" me: "great, I assume I can get copies of your herd's negative results"
them: "well, no. But I only buy from reputable herds"
me: "So you haven't actually tested your goats?"
them: "no...but they are negative"

or...

"they gave me those test results over the phone, I don't have hard copies"

I have never had any disease testing done (and I've done a LOT) that didn't come with a printed report of some sort, or the option of obtaining one.

Bottom line: there are a frightening amount of breeders out there advertising their herd as negative for this that and the other thing, they word it as if they have tested their own goats, and the truth is that they have not. The ones who have actually done the testing will, in my experience, gladly and promptly furnish you with copies of their herd's negative statues (myself included!). If they can't, move on.

#2 popular baloney is saying a doe is bred to get her sold. I actually fell for this one. 4 does who were supposed to be bred and due in about 2 months, breeder said they had been pen bred with bucks for a month and a half, were showing, ect., turns out not a single one of them were actually pregnant. I contacted the breeder about this and got an earful of more baloney, and zero attempt to make it right. Mind you these does were not advertised as "exposed", but advertised as "bred" with a lot of evidence from the breeder to support that theory. I can only assume she lied through her teeth because I find it next to impossible to believe that four fertile does spent a month and a half penned with three different bucks and not a single one of them actually got pregnant.

I'm almost mad enough to name names...but for now I won't.

Suffice it to say, folks, sadly you must assume that people are not telling the truth. Test the animals yourself for everything. Biotracking will do CAE & pregnancy, WADDL will do everything else. Good luck!
 

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I'm new to owning goats and so far the goat people I have met were wonderful. So knowledgable and passionate about goat health. It would really hurt the reputation of all breeders if I ran into those who lied or misrepresented first. Hopefully the honest and educated breeders out number the dishonest and uneducated breeders.
 

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Anything to make a buck :( sadly in my 28 years I have learned to have people earn my trust to to give freely.......mainly the last year.
I dont test and Over the years I have have only had one person want my goats tested. And it was more I talked him into it since he wanted a starter herd and I would feel so bad if I started someone totally clueless with something they never really put thought into wanting or not. And I earned total browny points on that I might add lol. So to lie when there are buyers out there who could care less is total bs!!!
 

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yeah and to be honest we never looked at the paperwork (kids cant really be tested anyway)-- and the 2 owners we bought from are pretty upstanding citizens (the first is head of the local Girls Scouts for the County, dont they have a code of ethics?) and the 2nd is longstanding dairy in the area, and she shows her goats as well-- she is going to email me the CAE results on the yearling I bought yesterday--

I will have all my does tested in the spring after they all hit 10months so they can have the CL testing done as well....
 

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Yup. I think buying bred does is the worse! I bought a "bred" doe from a well known breeder in Texas. She never covered with my Buck once she was here, so I assumed she in fact was bred. 2 years later, 6 doses of cysterlin, tons of wormer, and lots of feed she finally cycled and bred.

Last year, I bought 4 bred does from a different well known breeder, "confirmed by ultrasound". I paid $1500 each! Three of the 4 covered with my Buck a week after arriving! One was actually bred but did not have a drop of milk when she kidded. Breeder had also guaranteed they all milked good.

This last breeder did work with me a little, but I think that they still intentionally took advantage of me and I didn't end up with the deal I thought I was getting.
 

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I havnt dealt with alot of this yet but i must say that our vet did tst a few of our does and called us with the results.... We didnt have a hard copy.
Just saying :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
well...as far as the nonexistent copies of negative results, I suppose it is possible, but that was the same person who lied to me about the does being bred. Also she had done her CAE through WADDL but claimed that she got her Johnes tests only over the phone, which makes no sense. When you do CAE & Johnes through WADDL they are both listed on the same page side by side. Her paper only showed CAE.

Regardless, I would be devastated if I accidentally infected my herd with one of these diseases so I don't take a chance I don't have to take. Animals are screened on their own farm and if they come up negative, I'll buy them & retest on my farm so I know that the tests weren't tampered with (I have heard of people sending off 10 samples from the same goat to get a whole herd negative)

There are some people who just don't worry about the diseases. I'm not one of them, and for these other people to ride on my coat tails and make claims about their herd really makes me angry. I invest a lot of time and money so that people who buy goats or milk from me can feel confident.

I confronted one other breeder who was advertising her herd as "CAE, CL and Johnes free" on Facebook. She had zero testing. Claimed she had bought from good herds, but I know the herds she bought from and they haven't done testing at all or in some cases CAE only. As far as I'm concerned she had no basis for claiming her herd was CAE, CL and Johnes negative. I told her so, and suggested she change her statement on Facebook. She did change it to something less misleading, otherwise I definitely would have outed her.

My years of test results are available on my website and I will gladly show copies of all of my negative results to anyone who inquires.

It took me awhile to realize the games people play with wording and so on, now I am wise to it. I hope I can save someone the trouble of buying a goat that turns out to be sick because they fell for one of these gimmicks.

I'm sad to say that of the people I've dealt with it has been nearly 50/50 between honest folks and dishonest folks.

I would like to take a moment to give one plug- Terry Babb at Oldesouth in Alabama sold me 3 does and a buck and all of them were just as she described them to be. I found her great to deal with, she was honest and I am pleased with the animals. She has a good biosecurity policy & all of her animals retested negative with me, too.
 

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Here's my philosophy on it. If you want a more current test, let's go for it. You can hold the goat while I draw and you help label the vials. Goats do like to surprise you with something horrible so, more testing is better. ;)
If it comes back neg. you pay for it as part of purchase. If positive, I'll pay for it and try to figure out how in world that happened.
 

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^^^^ and most people will test their animal when they got to their place no matter what papers the seller shows.
That's basically what I did when I sold my goats that were tested. The blood was done here and they stayed in a pen I made up just for them in a 'no goat zone' till the results came back. That way if it wasn't clean they never set foot on his place.
 

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Is there a sticky somewhere on drawing blood, a step by step on How to send out for a test(ie you label the vial and then pack it thus way and mail it xyz to be tested)?
And maybe on performing fecals as well?
 

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My two Boer does(who I am assuming are fertile) spent almost 3 months in a pen with about 3 bucks, and neither of them have shown any signs of being pregnant, and October is the last possible month they could kid. So it is possible that they were in but didn't get pregnant, very unlikely that 4 does wouldn't be pregnant, but it is possible. Now the fact that the breeder advertised them as being bred, not exposed? You technically payed for another....4-12 animals(depending on how many kids each one would have had). Would there have been a way to sue or legally request a refund or something?
 

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Now the fact that the breeder advertised them as being bred, not exposed? You technically payed for another....4-12 animals(depending on how many kids each one would have had). Would there have been a way to sue or legally request a refund or something?
No, because they were not advertised/sold as guaranteed bred. Had the seller done that, they would be on the hook for reimbursement of the does if the buyer so desired and for the lack of kids.
 

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Sorry to hear of the trouble you've had. It's amazing how many people will lie about things like that. Good post though...hopefully it will help some people out!

Here are a few things i've learned through the years...

If you are selling a doe that *might* be pregnant...only list that doe for sale as "exposed to buck"...never guarantee that she is bred unless you have proof. If you are selling a guaranteed bred doe and she is not obviously pregnant, there should be proof...like blood test results.

If you ask for disease test results for a herd that claims to be negative and the breeder doesn't easily get that for you...there's usually a problem there. If someone is going to advertise their herd as disease free, then they better have the results to prove it.

Prior to selling a goat...have a contract. This is something i've neglected this year, i'll admit i've gotten lazy, but every seller should have one. Have a simple contract written up for every sale. Have things written out clearly and keep it short, but this can potentially save you a lot of trouble down the road.

Also, prior to the goat leaving for it's new home. Ideally the day the animal leaves, take pictures. That way you have something that shows what the animal looked like at time of sale should something go wrong. I know of some real horror stories when it comes to bad goat haulers. Like...the goat left the seller's healthy and arrived to the buyer in poor condition. Buyer is upset, hauler blames seller, and without proof...it makes the seller look like the bad guy when the hauler may be the one at fault.

If you can make a sale going only or mostly by email...do it! That way you have everything in writing and should there be an issue, a buyer would have a harder time claiming you said something that you didn't, or you lied about the goat, etc.

Anyway, maybe that will help someone out. Whether you're a buyer or a seller, there are simple things you can do to help keep you safe when it comes to a sale.
 

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Thanks Goatcrazy,
and I just found the sticky for fecals....
Now, is there a milking for dummies sticky somewhere?....
I think there's one under dairy diaries. if not, there are tons of threads about how to milk properly.

to the OP, thanks for the post. i'll keep all of these in mind when I'm ready to rebuild my herd in Ontario.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
KW Farms I think you pretty much nailed it. The only last thing I might add is for the buyer to take pictures too. This is something I regret that I didn't do on a doe I bought years ago from a local breeder. She was my second ND ever, and when I petted her at the breeder I felt nothing but bones. I felt so sorry for her, that I paid good money for her just to get her out of there because she was in rough shape. Once we got her home, we also discovered that she was totally infested with lice, and I don't mean just a little bit. I mean infested in the truest sense of the word. It was so bad, and she was so anemic, that we felt we could leave her like that for 24 more hrs waiting for the livestock stores to open and get Eprinex (was Sat night). So we bathed her with flea shampoo, which worked wonderfully by the way. But when we got her wet, we saw just how terribly emaciated she was, I mean nothing there but bones.

It's a long story but I finally mentioned it to the breeder a few weeks later when she had already put on a lot of weight. The breeder hotly contested the bad shape she was in when she sold her to me and I didn't document anything so I couldn't prove it.

On the up side, she is quite possibly my favorite doe and so far definitely my favorite udder in the herd (and did not buy her in milk & there were no udder pics so I had no idea what I was getting)
 

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The breeder hotly contested the bad shape she was in when she sold her to me and I didn't document anything so I couldn't prove it.
In your situation it wouldn't have made any difference whether you had had a hundred pictures "proving" the doe was emaciated - the previous owner didn't care and would have come up with a hundred excuses why it wasn't her fault. Some people should not be allowed to own animals.
 
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