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Hey all! So, little bit of backstory, almost 3 years ago, I acquired a Toggenburg doe, she was bred, herd was supposedly CAE-, well, when she kidded, she had 2 kids, a doeling and a buckling. At 6 weeks of age, the buckling started having paralysis. I had to have him euthanized due to the paralysis creeping from the rear to the front. I had Momma tested...CAE+. So, her doeling and her both popped positive. I was given a name of a lady who ran a "sanctuary for CAE+ goats" by several people - great home, they will be spoiled and taken care of, no breeding, etc etc etc...low and behold, a week or so ago, I got a message from her with pictures of babies from the doeling. She said she had them retested, and they both came back negative. Which I know is bull, I still see my baby Storm dying in my arms as he was being PTS, I hope I never have to do that again. Fast forward to Wednesday evening, I get a message, she needs the goats gone due to personal issues, can I take these girls back? My husband and I discussed it, we were afraid she would resell these CAE+ goats and not inform the new owner they were positive, and the issues and disease would spread. We made the 6 hour round trip to get both does and the 2 babies. At least with us, we know they are postive and we know they are safe. This is where it gets interesting. BOTH does are extremely underweight, covered in lice, and seriously not looking that great, hair coat is dull, they just look horrible. After a pow-wow with my vet, we came up with the best plan of action to rehab these girls. Small amounts of grain several times throughout the day and building them up slowly to avoid acidosis, 1/2 qt of alfalfa pellets 2x a day, free choice grass hay and water, along with VIT B injections and worming for 3 days, and also iron. For treatment of lice I am using UltraBoss pour on as prescribed by my vet. Babies are approx 2 weeks old and so far seem healthy, but I know how fast things can change.

Now, my issue is, there is no known breed date for the doe who is still waiting to kid, a buck was gotten and thrown in with the herd. She hasnt been food crazy at all since we got them a few days ago, she takes all day to eat her alfalfa pellets and picks at the grain and hay. Her lady bits look swollen tonight, ligaments are questionable, it is so hard to tell with her being so boney. I was told she lost her mucus plug several days before we picked them up and to expect kids within the week. I have colostrum replacer on hand for her babies (if my healthy doe kids before her I am saving colostrum also), I plan to pull them at birth to try to help prevent the spread of CAE to them through nursing, I plan on drying her off as soon as possible as she has had issues with mastitis in the past due to the CAE. I have another CAE/CL NEG doe I am milking now and plan to put the babies on her milk. (The CAE + goats are seperated from my healthy herd and will continue to be seperated for life.) Has anyone ever dealt with an emaciated pregnant doe, as in spine and ribs are prominent, along with hip bones? These girls are a hot mess and I am trying my best to rehabilitate them. Any advice as to what to look for as kidding goes? Issues to look for? I am nervous about losing her or the kid(s). I have cameras on her and check on her often. I just dont want to stress her out by bugging her constantly. She has been through enough, obviously, and I feel guilty because I put her and her baby in that situation, I was led astray by several references for this "sanctuary" and I fell for it. Yes, I cry over these 2 girls, they were the sweetest goats ever, and now they are just sad and depressed, nothing like the girls I knew, it breaks my heart, I dont sleep well, I worry about them, I research and research, I just want to fix my mistake and do right by them. Please be gentle, I did what I believe was right with bringing them home, at least they are safe here. If I would have known this is what they were going to face, they would have never left at all.
 

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First of all, you are an awesome person, helping these goats who despratley need a home. I admire you for that. You sound like you really care for these goats, and that you would do anything for them. You are an awesome person, and how DARE someone even THINK about scolding you for taking in these goats.

For the doe thats due to kid.
Do you know how to feel for tail head ligaments? Thise are the best indicator that the doe is going to go soon. If not, google has many answers :) Be sure you have a vet on call when she goes into labor. Do you have another goat friend that knows how to assist birth? Just remember, 95% of goat births are uneventful. BUT, do be prepared! If she has been pushing for more than 30 mins. and you dont see babies, Check. Without hesitation, go in and check. Make sure you have an antibiotic on hand if you do have to go in and check. Pen G is what i use, and can be found at Tractor Supply.

What are you doing for their lice? Any kind of treatment? Did your vet run a fecal on them? I strongly suggest that you send in a fecal to include cocci, and order LOH herbal dewormer while you wait. https://landofhavilahfarm.com/loh/product/parasite-formula/

You sound like you have an awesome vet. That is a blessing that, sadly, not everyone has access to in the goat world.

I will tag some people who i believe who will be better teachers than I am. Good luck, and Welcome to The goat spot :)

@SalteyLove @happybleats @toth boer goats @GoofyGoat @Damfino @ksalvagno @goathiker
 

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Your plan is okay, there are a couple things I would change initially.
Grain- I would offer plain whole oats for now. They are very low acid, high fiber, and contain more fat/healthy oils than processed feed. Later you can slowly start adding in a processed feed if you want. CAE+ does do better on lifetime whole grains however...
I would like to see either a grass hay alfalfa mix or to slowly increase the alfalfa pellets as well. The amount of alfalfa should be 1/3 of the hay ration. The outlined ration is deficient in calcium.
I think you would find that they would benefit immensely with the addition of 1 teaspoon cod liver oil along with 100 mg of vitamin E daily. Both of these will strengthen their immune systems, and CAE goats can be healthy, if the immune system is strong.
I do have experience with CAE, it's been a 'few' years though lol
@lottsagoats1 has more recent experience.
 

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You have a wonderful vet. Follow the advice.
I am sorry your two girls went through that trauma.
You must make sure you are ready to assist. From what it sounds momma may not have the same strength to birth that your healthy girls do.
Patience and love is what your girls need.
Good luck.
 

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Most veterinarians have about a weeks worth of education on goats. They treat them like little cattle even though their requirements are closer to antelope.
Not all for sure, some own their personal herds and/or are interested and try to keep up. There is a lot of false information and goat bias out there though. I've lived in my new home for 8 months and I'm still driving to my old veterinarian @ 95 miles away. Even he is limited because he doesn't keep up with new information but, I haven't found any better in the area I moved to and I can usually get what I need from him.
Unfortunately, part of being a goat owner is saying un huh, yep, for sure, at the veterinarians and then going home with the prescription you needed or procedure done and doing what you have learned you need to do from people with experience.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
First of all, you are an awesome person, helping these goats who despratley need a home. I admire you for that. You sound like you really care for these goats, and that you would do anything for them. You are an awesome person, and how DARE someone even THINK about scolding you for taking in these goats.

For the doe thats due to kid.
Do you know how to feel for tail head ligaments? Thise are the best indicator that the doe is going to go soon. If not, google has many answers :) Be sure you have a vet on call when she goes into labor. Do you have another goat friend that knows how to assist birth? Just remember, 95% of goat births are uneventful. BUT, do be prepared! If she has been pushing for more than 30 mins. and you dont see babies, Check. Without hesitation, go in and check. Make sure you have an antibiotic on hand if you do have to go in and check. Pen G is what i use, and can be found at Tractor Supply.

What are you doing for their lice? Any kind of treatment? Did your vet run a fecal on them? I strongly suggest that you send in a fecal to include cocci, and order LOH herbal dewormer while you wait. https://landofhavilahfarm.com/loh/product/parasite-formula/

You sound like you have an awesome vet. That is a blessing that, sadly, not everyone has access to in the goat world.

I will tag some people who i believe who will be better teachers than I am. Good luck, and Welcome to The goat spot :)

@SalteyLove @happybleats @toth boer goats @GoofyGoat @Damfino @ksalvagno @goathiker
Thank you so much! I love these girls. I have had people ask me how this is my problem, I rehomed them so they were her issue not mine. Thing is, once an animal is in my home, they are still mine even after they leave. I take on the responsibility, there's too many animals out there no one cares for, I try to make sure none of those animals were once mine. These girls deserve to be taken care of, regardless of CAE status, I guess I make a lousy farmer, but at least I wont have any regrets.

He did run a fecal, so they are being wormed 1x a day for 3 days, along with the Vit B and iron. He said theres a heavy parasite load between worms and lice, and they are anemic also. I am using safeguard for goats due to the pregnancy and kids. For the lice I am using UltraBoss pour on, 1 treatment followed by another in 2 weeks. They were infested to the point of massive hair loss.

I do know how to check for ligaments, but have a hard time finding them at this point. Either they are softened or shes so boney I am not sure I am feeling them or bone. These girls are both easily 30+ lbs underweight. Spines, ribs, hip bones prominent, very little muscle mass, they were starved.

I have a neighbor who I can call if theres problems during delivery, he said I can call anytime at all and he has a lot of experience. I have some but my experiences were mainly with cows and horses. I have LA 200 and Penicillin on hand for antibiotics in case I have to reach in. I worry about her being strong enough to deliver, and hopefully have a strong plan in place if she isnt. My vet is over an hour and half away, I drive to him at this point. We moved a year ago and vets in this area are sparse, apparently. Hardly anyone here does farm calls. Its crazy. Even my vet tried calling a vet he knows here to come out before I loaded her up and drove to him. He didnt even get a call back so we went for a ride. Thankfully she still likes going for truck rides!

I just hope I can get these girls back up and running. They deserve nothing else but to be taken care of and loved.
 

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I would thoroughly research how to practuce biosecurity in this situation.
I personally don't believe my farm could maintain good biosecurity (namely I have 3 kids that just do what thr heck they want, warnings be damned.) I never would have brought this lot back home, and I commend you for your open heart.

As mentioned, whole grains tend to Trump processed feed. In my experience with processed feeds, I gave them up. This recipe I use could be tweaked to help support your goats even better using the above poster's recommendations:

5 cup whole oat
5 cup whole barley
(Field pea and wheat is awesome if you can find it to add)
1 cup crack corn
1 cup sunflower seed
Soaked in 1 cup apple cider vinegar plus 6 or so cups of water.
3 cups of the mix is equal to approx 1lb
You can of course triple recipe and make in a bigger container.

I have underweight goats, my fault.
This recipe has been putting meat back on them. The milkers will no longer touch sweet grains, a clear preference.
And as mentioned, alfalfa pellets have also helped for anyone in milk. They will tell you when they are full if you keep offering it.
 

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You're awesome to take these girls back and try to end their suffering and get them better. It's so hard to see an animal you've love hurt. Hang in there.
Give them redcell for the anemia 6cc per 100lbs until they're FAMACHA is pink then once a week until red. Maybe some calf manna added to their grains slowly or kid grower food might help too.
Maybe some canned pumpkin might encourage these gals to eat. I've even used baby food because it drenches easily just to get some calories into them. Dyne is high good fats and antioxidants too it might get help.
I don't suggest throwing all of this at them just offering some alternatives.
 

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Nickers here you have friends who will never judge you nor yell at you. You are an honourable person. You will find a balance with all the advice ofered over here.
You are an awesome person with an animal heart. Keep going.
Your girls will love you and be grateful when it all goes back to normal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Your plan is okay, there are a couple things I would change initially.
Grain- I would offer plain whole oats for now. They are very low acid, high fiber, and contain more fat/healthy oils than processed feed. Later you can slowly start adding in a processed feed if you want. CAE+ does do better on lifetime whole grains however...
I would like to see either a grass hay alfalfa mix or to slowly increase the alfalfa pellets as well. The amount of alfalfa should be 1/3 of the hay ration. The outlined ration is deficient in calcium.
I think you would find that they would benefit immensely with the addition of 1 teaspoon cod liver oil along with 100 IU of vitamin E daily. Both of these will strengthen their immune systems, and CAE goats can be healthy, if the immune system is strong.
I do have experience with CAE, it's been a 'few' years though lol
@lottsagoats1 has more recent experience.
Thank you, we are starting them out small ration alfalfa pellets as we are worried about founder, I am to slowly build them up on the pellets along with the grain. I will definitely switch them over to oats and add the cod liver oil, I do have that on hand. I also have a Vit E paste with selenium, would this work? I am finding I need to order most things online as the local Tractor doesnt carry some of the things I need. I have made 2 trips in as many days trying to find things for these girls and what I cant find I pay for expedited shipping to get it here faster.

Would rice bran be something I could make a mash with for them? Just curious if they could have it and if it would do any good.

They also have free choice minerals in case they feel the need. The pregnant doe was not drinking so I gave her warm molasses water to get her interested, and so far so good, she is drinking water as she should. I monitor these girls around the clock, every hour throughout the night I am checking the cameras and throughout the day I check cameras and go to the barn. My husband says I am obsessed, but he understands my worries.

Do you have any decent links to find info on CAE? Everywhere I look gives me a description of what it is, symptoms, etc. but no decent ideas how to care for them in the best way. Help? I do tend to obsess over gaining knowledge about things, especially issues with animals. CAE leaves me baffled and it frustrates me to no end.

Thank you also for your help and advice! I will put this into my care plan for these girls. Going to call my feed guy and get some plain oats for these sweet girls. I just want to get on the right track. I really appreciate everything!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I would thoroughly research how to practuce biosecurity in this situation.
I personally don't believe my farm could maintain good biosecurity (namely I have 3 kids that just do what thr heck they want, warnings be damned.) I never would have brought this lot back home, and I commend you for your open heart.

As mentioned, whole grains tend to Trump processed feed. In my experience with processed feeds, I gave them up. This recipe I use could be tweaked to help support your goats even better using the above poster's recommendations:

5 cup whole oat
5 cup whole barley
(Field pea and wheat is awesome if you can find it to add)
1 cup crack corn
1 cup sunflower seed
Soaked in 1 cup apple cider vinegar plus 6 or so cups of water.
3 cups of the mix is equal to approx 1lb
You can of course triple recipe and make in a bigger container.

I have underweight goats, my fault.
This recipe has been putting meat back on them. The milkers will no longer touch sweet grains, a clear preference.
And as mentioned, alfalfa pellets have also helped for anyone in milk. They will tell you when they are full if you keep offering it.
This is awesome! My feed guy does custom feed, I know I can get everything I need from him to make this, except the apple cider vinegar and water which I have here. Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Nickers here you have friends who will never judge you nor yell at you. You are an honourable person. You will find a balance with all the advice ofered over here.
You are an awesome person with an animal heart. Keep going.
Your girls will love you and be grateful when it all goes back to normal.
I have met so much adversity about these goats, it really opened my eyes to who supports me and who doesn't. All this help and support coming from you all is overwhelming, I am literally crying with relief right now. Finally, theres people who help and not judge. I hesitated posting about this, but I figured my girls needed the help, it was worth the risk of being judged and attacked. The amount of help and advice is just amazing to me. I know I needed help, and I am so thankful for every single one of you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You're awesome to take these girls back and try to end their suffering and get them better. It's so hard to see an animal you've love hurt. Hang in there.
Give them redcell for the anemia 6cc per 100lbs until they're FAMACHA is pink then once a week until red. Maybe some calf manna added to their grains slowly or kid grower food might help too.
Maybe some canned pumpkin might encourage these gals to eat. I've even used baby food because it drenches easily just to get some calories into them. Dyne is high good fats and antioxidants too it might get help.
I don't suggest throwing all of this at them just offering some alternatives.
I never thought about pumpkin for them! I give pumpkin to my horses for gut health. I asked my vet about Red Cell and he was worried it would be too high in copper for them? I know goats can have copper, unlike sheep who can't. I keep Red Cell on hand for my horses in case I need it. I have a few rescues who I have rehabbed (horses - but they werent this starved) and keep things on hand, just in case. Starving goats is a new level for me.
 

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It seems like everyone has the nutrition and advice portion covered. You are amazing for taking them in.
As far as the "Sanctuary" I have my own views of them but I have yet to come across one (aside from wildlife/rehab sanctuaries) that takes proper care of their animals or who have an agenda. Now as far as I know breeding animals that they take in is a big No No in the world of animal rescues. I am hoping you are taking records of this and possibly report it to the athuorities to prevent other animals from becoming victims of this lady.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
It seems like everyone has the nutrition and advice portion covered. You are amazing for taking them in.
As far as the "Sanctuary" I have my own views of them but I have yet to come across one (aside from wildlife/rehab sanctuaries) that takes proper care of their animals or who have an agenda. Now as far as I know breeding animals that they take in is a big No No in the world of animal rescues. I am hoping you are taking records of this and possibly report it to the athuorities to prevent other animals from becoming victims of this lady.
Yes I am, I have pictures, documentation from the vet, documenting everything I need to do for these girls, receipts, everything I can gather. My neighbor even came down to see the goats after we got home that night and got everyone settled in, she said she will give a statement. I was worried someone would report me for starving these girls, but I have witnesses, messages from this "sanctuary", gas receipts and everything to show I just got them. All they would have to do is look at my Alpines and they would know I didnt do this to them. I also have been in contact with a local horse rescue to get information on who to contact, how to do it and everything, they are guiding me along the way as they just went through all this with a starvation case of 6 horses and know the legalities. I will do everything I can to prevent this from happening to another animal.

She was to be a vet tech. I was a vet tech and I sure as heck wouldnt let my animals look like this.

I just found out my feed guys son is an animal nutritionist, he is coming to access my girls and talk with me later today. I am planning on running all these ideas and advice past him and hopefully we can merge together a better plan of action.

On another note, I just came in from checking my girls. The younger momma is doing well, her kids are thriving and bouncing around as kids should. The one I am waiting on to freshen definitely has lost ligaments and her lady bits are huge and starting to gap. Hopefully things go smooth and we can then focus on helping her to help herself instead of giving everything she has for her kids.
 

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I am glad you are so willing. So many people would not be trying to prevent it from happening to another animal and would just let the lady go. It infuriates me to no end. Especially if she is getting donations to help care for the animals.
 
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