CL abscess?

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by emmapal, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. emmapal

    emmapal LDS homeschool mom of 6

    73
    Oct 4, 2012
    Kyle, TEXAS!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSZdRiIsFdI

    I shot a video of my 2yr alpine doe who about a week ago suddenly developed an abscess or cyst on her right cheek on the jaw directly under her ear about the size of a golf ball. What is the next step I should take to ascertain what it is? Vet? Cull? We were trying to breed her to my Nubian buck, but I do not want a CL animal in my herd.

    It shows no sign of thinning skin or balding, is neither firm nor very soft. We are new goat owners of just a few months, and have never had any animals tested for CAE, CL, or Johne's. She was wormed recently, but has had no other medical care of which I am aware.
     
  2. Jessica84

    Jessica84 Well-Known Member

    Oct 27, 2011
    California
    If I were to take a guess I would say cl. I posted this on the other post, but will go again :) to give you a idea if it might be cl, get a needle and syringe and try to pull fluid out, if no fluid its a goood chance cl. as long as the hair is not falling off the puss is too thick to pull it out. No one can really answer what to do on the vet but you, is she worth the vet bill and tests?? If it was me and I really liked the goat I would test her. If your going to go threw the vet though, treat it like cl and just put her in a small pen by herself, that way if it is cl and it does burst its not all over the place.
     

  3. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    I would have the vet out and take care of it and make sure he/she tests the pus. Until the pus is tested, you really don't know for sure.
     
  4. lottsagoats

    lottsagoats Junior Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Middle Maine
    Yup, testing the pus is the only way to know for sure, the rest is speculation and guessing.

    If she is worth it to you, get the vet out to lance and gather the pus for a testing. If not, you need to have her put down to minimize the risk to your other animals or having someone else end up with her.
     
  5. MsScamp

    MsScamp New Member

    Jan 31, 2010
    Wyoming
    Unfortunately, that is almost certainly CL. Watch it closely, isolate her and call the vet when the hair starts to come off, get it lanced, cleaned out, and give a course of antibiotics to kill any bacteria still in her system. Make sure the pus does not drain onto the ground - put down plastic bags of some type. Burn everything used to clean it out and collect the pus. If you do that, you will probably never have a recurrence.
     
  6. emmapal

    emmapal LDS homeschool mom of 6

    73
    Oct 4, 2012
    Kyle, TEXAS!
    anyone a fan of this method using formalin?

    http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/CLFormalin.html

    I know it is carcinogenic, but better than putting her to sleep.

    I will call the vet in the morning (we have a great vet near us who is only $35 for an exam), and see if I can get her in once the hair starts to fall off of the cyst. It is still fairly firm.

    If we decide to lance and drain it, we'll do it at his office and let him handle it. I'm not quite ready for that yet.

    Funny, my 6yr daughter had her lymph node on her jaw under her ear swell up like that a few months ago, pretty scary. After spending all day at the pediatrician's, the pediatric dentist, the oral surgeon, and then pediatric ultrasound, they finally decided it was just a simple case of cat scratch fever! The golf ball went away on its own after a few weeks. Sad that it is not so simple with my poor little goat :(
     
  7. jddolan

    jddolan New Member

    617
    Mar 31, 2013
    I just ordered formalin,I tyed it last night on a abscess ,I injected some in it but when I pulled needle out bit just oozed so I ended up opening it up and draining,I think if I would have caught it earlier,may have worked better so well see,experimenting with it,ended up flushing it with it,I ordered it from vetserv usa
     
  8. MsScamp

    MsScamp New Member

    Jan 31, 2010
    Wyoming
    Yes, that would be nice. Better yet would be to have a cure for CL. I guess if you're going to dream, dream big. :laugh: No, I'm not a fan of the formalin option. I looked into it, did my research, and decided it wasn't for me. I raise meat goats for slaughter and the USDA tests for that and has a zero tolerance policy. Couple that with the fact that all of my goats have premise ID tags, and I'm out of business if even one tests positive. There is also the fact that the formalin has been known to seep out of the abcess and into the surrounding tissue, thus causing problems. I believe I'll pass. :)
     
  9. emmapal

    emmapal LDS homeschool mom of 6

    73
    Oct 4, 2012
    Kyle, TEXAS!
    We have her as a dairy goat, our only female (1 buck and 2 wethers). If she is not intended for slaughter or resale, would the formalin be a viable option? USDA tests for formalin? Odd the meat producer near me who has the site I linked uses it on her meat goats and didn't mention that. i wonder why they don't have to deal with that; maybe because they are selling breeding stock rather than animals for slaughter?

    I will discuss options with the vet, if he would rather lance or inject, and if we should vaccinate them all with the new-ish goat CL vaccine. I ordered formalin anyway from santa cruz biotech.
     
  10. MsScamp

    MsScamp New Member

    Jan 31, 2010
    Wyoming
    Could be that they are raising breeding stock, could also be that they don't use premise ID tags. An excerpt from the following document:

    http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0085/

    Note on formaldehyde treatment:
    Although formaldehyde is effective in treating abscesses it can be caustic and irritant to the skin, mucosa membranes, and lungs. Formaldehyde is toxic, can be diffused through the skin to other organs, and has an accumulative effect in the goat’s body. Formaldehyde is also a carcinogenic agent to humans and is not allowed in animals, including those consumed by humans. Some producers have reported losses of animals after the inoculation of formaldehyde in the treatment of CL abscesses. Formaldehyde can be found in the meat and milk after being infused in abscesses.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  11. emmapal

    emmapal LDS homeschool mom of 6

    73
    Oct 4, 2012
    Kyle, TEXAS!
    Vet said the exam and lancing would be about $60 at his office, so I could watch and learn without having to do it myself and clean up. So we are waiting for it to head up and bald a little to take her in. This way he can test the pus too so I will know better if she ever gets another tumor if it is CL for sure.
     
  12. emmapal

    emmapal LDS homeschool mom of 6

    73
    Oct 4, 2012
    Kyle, TEXAS!
    Had it lanced this morning.

    YUCK!!!

    With any luck I will never have to do it myself, but not holding out much hope for that. So glad I watched a vet do it first and was able to ask questions. If anyone develops another, I ordered formalin to at least try it and compare what I prefer.

    He advised against vaccinating: said it is still too ineffective with too many side effects, and my herd isn't large enough to justify the expense of an autogenous vax. He also said there's really no reason to test the pus since it was pretty obviously CL.

    Sent her home with slip syringes and triodine to wash it out every day until it scabs over and she can go back in with the herd. She is also definitely not pregnant :(
     
  13. AmyBoogie

    AmyBoogie New Member

    May 20, 2013
    Maine
    I'm sorry that it turned out to be CL. Maybe she's got a great immune system going and will never have another incident.
     
  14. emmapal

    emmapal LDS homeschool mom of 6

    73
    Oct 4, 2012
    Kyle, TEXAS!
    Follow up: the vet didnt tell me to wash out the abscess sac until I asked him about it, and he said I could. But now I cant find anything about whether and how long I should. Now I wonder if it is important enough to bother. He washed it out with iodine twice at his office (filled the sac, sloshed, drained), and I have iodine with slip syringes here at home. Is it necessary to repeat for a few days?
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  15. happybleats

    happybleats Well-Known Member

    Sep 12, 2010
    Gustine Texas
    Yes its important to flush it a few times a day for 3-4 days...keeping the bacteria cleaned out until the wall of the cyst is thin and healing will help preent a second cyst from forming...If it scabs over too soon, you need to remove the scab and keep flushing...use iodine to flush..once the walls are thin you can let it heal..once it heals to the point no chance on oozing then the goat can return to the herd...If you dont flush and bacteria is still in there..it will heal then before you know it a second, usually larger cyst grows...its well worth the pain of flushing 2-3 times a day for 3-4 days...take care with the flushing..wear gloves and use tons of paper towels to catch anything draining and put it all in a zip lock baggie to burn or toss...
     
  16. MsScamp

    MsScamp New Member

    Jan 31, 2010
    Wyoming
    Yes, I would definitely wash it out until it starts to heal. 1 - it keeps it clean and kills any new pus, and 2 - prevents a secondary infection from starting. Did he give her antibiotics or tell you to give her some?

    PS I'm sorry it was CL. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  17. emmapal

    emmapal LDS homeschool mom of 6

    73
    Oct 4, 2012
    Kyle, TEXAS!
    No antibiotics. No real follow up prescribed. Busy no frills practice but everyone around here loves the place. She is doing well. Some scabby exudate this morning after not washing it yesterday; i cleaned off. Wound only fits about 3cc iodine now down from 10 or 12 the day it was lanced. Not scabbed over yet so will continue to fill it with iodine until it does. It is hard since I need help holding her to do it.

    Trying to think of anything helpful for anyone reading this later with the same issue...
     
  18. emmapal

    emmapal LDS homeschool mom of 6

    73
    Oct 4, 2012
    Kyle, TEXAS!
    She got another abscess and it burst today :( How do you clean up afterward? I was thinking a bleach or maybe vinegar dilution in a yard sprayer, but what can I put on my other goats directly?

    For those of you who choose the manage and not cull CL goats, any advice you can give? I think she may be pregnant due in January. Do you vaccinate the rest of the herd? Do you allow the kid to nurse? Can you consume the milk after the colostrum is gone?

    I could rehome her to a non-breeding farm, but I feel now that any breeding animals I bring in will be exposed also, so I fear I will never be able to have a goat in milk for our family's use. My neighbor's goats are CL positive now as well, and they share a fence line.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
  19. happybleats

    happybleats Well-Known Member

    Sep 12, 2010
    Gustine Texas
    Cleaning will be hard..we used bleach and soaked everything that could have been touched,pipes, walls fences, feeders..everything, we removed all top soil and soaked the ground.....all goats to be moved from the area....CL can live for several years in the ground...
    The cyste will need to be cleaned and flushed with an iodine solution 3 -4 times a day until you see the walls thinned...this could take 3-5 days...once the wall is thin you can allow it to close up.

    for her herd mates...move them from th area she burst...check them for puss stains, you can wash with a vinegar water solution, we used a product called Benefect from tropical traditions...off line..its a natural disinfect and safe for the goats, clean their hooves, scrub the hooves with a light bleach solution..

    http://www.householdtraditions.com/benefect.htm
     
  20. MsScamp

    MsScamp New Member

    Jan 31, 2010
    Wyoming
    I'm assuming you've isolated her, moved the other goats, and the area is small. Catch her and finish cleaning out the abscess being careful to not let it get on the ground.

    Mix up a 50% bleach and water solution and put it in a spray bottle. Put on a pair of sturdy plastic gloves and empty all feeders and waterers and spray them down. Let it dry and rinse. Spray fences and shelters and let it dry. Bleach really will not do any good on the ground because coming into contact with manure negates it. What you can do though is pick up all straw, hay, leaves, etc - don't rake them up, just get a pitch fork and pick them up so you don't turn anything over that could have pus on it. When it gets into the soil is when you have a long term problem, usually. If your pen is mostly dirt, pile everything up in the middle and burn it if possible. Get some ag lime and sprinkle it pretty heavy throughout the pen - shelter, too. Or if you know anyone with a skid steer that come in and take of the top inch or so of dirt, do that instead. Can you keep the non-infected goats in another pen for a few months? If so, do that. Sunlight will kill the CL bacteria if it can get to it.