CL question

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by winky, Dec 11, 2011.

  1. winky

    winky New Member

    Jun 19, 2011
    Oregon City, OR
    So I found a Toggenburg breeder who is offering buck service (driveway or boarding) but she hasn't tested her herd for several years AND she purchased a buck 3 years ago who ended up testing positive for CL. She said the buck has been kept in isolation since she got him but he is used for hand breeding. This is not the buck she is offering to me. Does this sound safe? Can you really keep a CL positive goat on your property and not infect the herd? And wouldn't most breeders rather cull a buck than take the chance of infecting the herd? Anyway, would you breed your doe to a buck from this herd? My doe just recently tested negative for CAE/OPP, Johne's, Brucella, and CL. So far, this is the only Togg breeder that I have found that is offering buck service and I've been advertising on Craigslist and sending emails to everyone I can find with toggs.
  2. xymenah

    xymenah Member with a bahhh

    Jul 1, 2011
    Mount Olive, NC
    As long as your driveway breeding I don't even see a problem with breeding a CL positive buck to a doe as long as he does not have an active abscess. The likely hood is very slim if at all that its going to be spread from that quick of an encounter unless he has an open abscess. That's just my two cents. However boarding would be out of the question.

  3. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Not worth it! Even if he doesn't have any abcesses and does not live with the CL positive goat the CL could be in the soil. Thats only if the one buck truly has CL.. he could of just tested positive because of vaccination. Hard to say, but it wouldn't be worth it to me.
  4. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I wouldn't attempt it don't know if the area has been properly cleaned and disinfected...where he is kept.. ...if they did not....he could still infect anything he comes in contact with....(contaminated ground)....very contagious......there could be higher risk... :(

    It is good that the breeder is honest and open about the CL would steer me clean away from there...... :(
  5. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator Supporting Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    I wouldn't. And it also might hurt sales or your reputation in the future if a buyer knows that that herd has a CL+ goat on the property and you bred one of your does to them.
    That'd be something to consider as well...though I doubt your doe would get CL...there is always that chance...and it's better not to risk it. :thumb:
  6. winky

    winky New Member

    Jun 19, 2011
    Oregon City, OR
    Looks like the nays have it. Thanks for your replies. I'll keep looking.
  7. What’s the Lowdown on CL?
    Dave Sparks DVM
    Caseous Lymphadenitis (CL) possible causes more emotional distress among goat breeders than any other goat disease. In fact, it may cause more problems to the breeders than it does for the goats. Many times I have had calls from producers who tearfully told me that their lives as goat producers were over and their farms ruined because of CL, when in fact their problems were relatively minor and manageable. CL is caused by the bacterium Corynebacterium psuedotuberculosis. While this organism is very common and most small ruminant producers will eventually have some issues with it, an understanding of the disease and proper management will allow goat producers to avoid major problems.
    The first step in understanding CL is to realize that all lumps and bumps on goats are not necessarily CL. Goats eat briars and stickers for a living and abscesses from all sources are common. Experienced goat veterinarians can usually, but not always, identify CL lesions from their location and the appearance of the material in the abscess. CL lesions occur when the organism enters through broken or abraded skin. Abscesses can form at the point of entry but it is much more common for them to form in the lymph node that filters the body fluid from that area. Figure 1 shows the location of the most common lymph nodes associated with CL. Figure 2 is a photo of a goat with a lump in the mandibular lymph node that, in fact, was CL. Figure 3 shows a lump on the lower jaw that was in an area not usually associated with CL. This lesion turned out to be a cyst in the salivary gland. The material expressed from lanced CL lesions is about the consistency of toothpaste, pale yellowish green, and has no odor. If it is runny, smells bad, or is any other color it is probably an abscess caused by some other bacterial pathogen. The only way to know for sure is to culture the material to identify the organisms present. Your local veterinarian can help you with this diagnostic test. There are blood serum tests for CL and some producers, especially dairy producers, rely heavily on these serological tests when acquiring breeding stock. The fact is, however, that these tests are not very reliable. They test for the presence of antibodies against one of the toxins produced by the CL causative agent. An active infection will result in a positive test. Past infections, vaccinations, and the presence of antibodies from colostrum in young animals can also result in positive tests. False negatives can occur due to the walling off of the infection in abscesses and the resulting limited exposure of the infection to circulating blood. Severely debilitated animals can also show false negatives.
    When an animal is exposed to the CL material from a ruptured abscess several different things can happen. In some cases the regional lymph node filters out the organism and walls it off until the infection can be dealt with by the body’s defense mechanism or by lancing and disinfecting the lesion. Some animals can have a lesion and then never have another problem. In some cases the infection is not completely contained and spreads down the lymphatic chain where it causes subsequent future lesions in additional lymph nodes. This results in goats that I think of as multiple offenders. These should be culled. In some cases the infection gets into the circulating blood and is carried to internal lymph nodes and organs. This results in goats that are chronic poor performers and eventually results in death. These should also be culled, but this diagnosis is often made on the harvest floor or at necropsy.
    It is also possible but not common for abscesses in the lungs to rupture and spread the organism through an aerosol from infected goats. Although penicillin is effective against the organism, results of antibiotic treatment are poor because very little of the drugs gets into the abscess where the infection is localized. The best way to treat common subcutaneous CL lesions is to lance them before they open on their own, clean out the infective material being very carefully to contain it and dispose of it, and rinse the lesion well inside and out with iodine. An alternative treatment that is popular with some breeders is to inject formalin into the abscess without opening it. This treatment should be avoided in that it is impossible to determine if all the infective organisms are killed and it results in a much higher incidence of recurrence and internal abscesses. When treating CL lesions always wear gloves and protect yourself from the infective material. CL can cause lesions in humans, but it is very rare and usually involves puncturing the person’s skin with an infected knife.
    There is a CL vaccine available in the U.S. but it is only labeled for sheep, not goats. According to Dr. Randall Berrier, staff veterinarian for Colorado Serum Company, when the company was doing the initial work on their CL vaccine they found that it caused unacceptable injection site issues in goats. Dr Berrier also reports that they realize the need exists for a safe goat CL vaccine and have been working towards that goal for at least 8 years. He feels that while they are making progress, they are not yet close to marketing a safe goat CL vaccine. The CL vaccine labeled for use in sheep has been shown to be of some value in managing severely infected herds, but such off label usage should by law be discussed with your local veterinarian. As mentioned above, blood tests for CL cannot differentiate between an active infection and vaccinated animals, so animals that receive the vaccine will always test positive rather they are infected or not. There has also been some thought that the vaccine may actually cause the disease. This is not possible as the vaccine is a killed organism product. According to Dr. Berrier the vaccine, like all vaccines, causes an inflammatory reaction at the injection site. If the live organism is already present in the animal this reaction results in a good environment for the organism which was lurking in the animal’s system to proliferate and cause a local abscess.
    Many producers feel that the only way to deal with CL is to purchase initial breeding stock from a tested negative herd and then maintain a closed herd. While I can’t argue with this theory, it is not practical for everyone. I have mentioned above that the test for CL is sometimes fallible. Closed herds may sound like a good idea but they can bring more problems than they solve. Animals from closed herds cannot develop immunity to the many organisms that they may encounter when they leave their herd and go to a new home. This is something like the child that stays at home until starting school and then is confronted with all the infections that his immune system has never seen, resulting in disease. Also, unless you have several thousand head you will need to find a way to get new genetic material into your “closed herd”. If you bring in new breeding animals then your closed herd is not closed. You can rely on artificial insemination or embryo transfer, but these techniques are beyond the means of most goat producers. A much more sensible approach is vigilant management. Obtain new breeding stock, rather as an initial acquisition or as an infusion of new genetics, from a reliable breeder that you can question. Ask to see health records and obtain references from other customers. If you spend some time you will know who you can trust and who you don’t feel comfortable with. Never purchase breeding stock from your local sale barn. If someone else sold them they likely have a problem. Is it CL, resistant parasites,
    or a lack of respect for fences? When you do experience a suspect CL lesion on a goat make sure you are checking often enough that you see it before it ruptures. Take the goat outside the goat area to lance, express, and disinfect the lesion. Isolate the goat until the lesion heals. Cull repeat offenders and any goat that is not doing well while the others in her contemporary group are in good shape. Remember that animal husbandry is not an exact science and we can no more eliminate all risk of disease in our goats than we can in our selves or our children. A good herdsman is the one that spends enough time with his animals to know what is happening and builds a management plan that minimizes the risk while maximizing the profitability.
  8. Hope this helps you and others.
  9. winky

    winky New Member

    Jun 19, 2011
    Oregon City, OR
    Thanks JDgray. That's very good information.
  10. packhillboers

    packhillboers Senior Member

    I vote "NO" also. I am just wondering why someone would keep a buck that is CL positive. Some people have told us & others that it is really not that serious of a thing. It sounds and reads of 'disaster' to me. It is a bacteria that does not respond to normal antibiotic treatment and is evidently incurable at this time as I have read. Quite contagious, quite contaminating of property.
  11. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    depends -- the buck you will be using hasnt had any lesions right? as long as your doe will not be going to the farm itself and staying there for any period of time the chances of any transfer are null.

    If the buck that tested positive has been in isolation - then that means he isnt with the rest of the herd so as long as no one else in the herd has lesions then it sounds like she is managing it well beings she has had that buck for 3 years with no other issues.

    as stated above by JD's article he posted - the serum test is only testing for antibodies so that test itself isnt accurate. I have stopped testing my herd because I dont see the need when no one has had a lesion its impractical and I dont like spending all that money for something that isnt 100% accurate. Im sure she feels the same way.

    An option you can ask is if you can pay for her other buck (the one offered to you for stud) to be tested and then go from there. She may go for it or she may not. I would if it was me but each breeder is different.
  12. winky

    winky New Member

    Jun 19, 2011
    Oregon City, OR
    An option you can ask is if you can pay for her other buck (the one offered to you for stud) to be tested and then go from there. She may go for it or she may not. I would if it was me but each breeder is different.

    That's an excellent idea! It can't hurt to ask.