CL Vaccine Effectiveness

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Smallishbear12, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. Smallishbear12

    Smallishbear12 New Member

    27
    Oct 13, 2017
    So I have some questions about the CL vaccine and a scenario that I'd like opinions on. So I'm interested in some does that had the CL vaccine before they were introduced to a herd that has CL. Neither of these does had any history of CL. Some members of the herd they got put into got the vaccine after they've had abscess, some never got the vaccine. If some members of the herd still show active symptoms, would the does who had the vaccine end up getting CL? Would the does who had CL before the vaccine become symptom-free? If these does got quarantined for 21 days then introduced to a new herd of CL-clean does who have never gotten the vaccine, would the new herd have a risk of getting CL?
     
  2. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    If you have a clean herd, I wouldn't bring in any of the does. CL will get into your dirt. Find a clean herd to buy from.
     

  3. Smallishbear12

    Smallishbear12 New Member

    27
    Oct 13, 2017
    So you wouldn't even bring in the does who got the vaccine before they were brought into the CL herd even after a quarantine?
     
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  4. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    How do you know they were clean before being vaccinated? How do you know they haven't walked through pus and got it on their feet?

    There is a thread on here with someone who said they cured CL with Draxxin. So you might want to search for that thread and look into it more.
     
  5. Noisy Bottle Babies

    Noisy Bottle Babies Well-Known Member

    300
    Oct 7, 2019
    Galesville,WI
    This year we bought a doe who got the vaccine and before she gave birth she came up with CL 2 weeks before her due date so we lanced it but sent her to market so I wouldn't say it always works
     
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  6. Smallishbear12

    Smallishbear12 New Member

    27
    Oct 13, 2017
    I knew these goats before and they were from a clean herd. I guess that's why I'm asking if they got the vaccine, would they still be able to get CL.
     
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  7. Smallishbear12

    Smallishbear12 New Member

    27
    Oct 13, 2017
    Do you know if she has been exposed to CL before she got her vaccine? I have that happen to me before to, it really sucked.
     
  8. Noisy Bottle Babies

    Noisy Bottle Babies Well-Known Member

    300
    Oct 7, 2019
    Galesville,WI
    No the whole herd was clean when they had came to this seller he bought them off a college kid and she was the only one out of all 9 we bought that had CL
     
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  9. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I agree, or, if she wasn't tested prior to her CL vaccine, she may of already had it.
    If she had it prior, the vaccine will do no good.
     
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  10. Jessica84

    Jessica84 Well-Known Member

    Oct 27, 2011
    California
    No vaccine is 100% and I believe the CL vaccine is only like 80%. So I personally would pass if you are totally against having a CL positive goat in your herd. If you are not totally against it (that’s your choice no one can tell you what to feel) then she would be one that should be watched like a hawk for abscesses. But just because she had the vaccine doesn’t really make her totally safe from not getting it if she has been around the pus of CL, IMO.
     
  11. CountyLineAcres

    CountyLineAcres Well-Known Member

    Jan 22, 2014
    Mineral Ridge, Ohio
    Yes. Unfortunately, goats with the vaccine can still get CL. Since CL is incurable, it’s up to you if that’s the risk you’re willing to take.
     
  12. NDinKY

    NDinKY Well-Known Member

    645
    Aug 3, 2019
    Kentucky
    I wouldn’t bring them into my herd/on my property either. Too much risk for me.
     
  13. ALBoerGoats

    ALBoerGoats Well-Known Member

    929
    Dec 26, 2015
    I absolutely wouldn't buy a goat that has had the CL vaccine. Also wouldn't buy from a herd that has known positives. Not worth the risk.
     
  14. Sfgwife

    Sfgwife Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2018
    North Cakalaki
    I often wonder.... when people vax for cl if they have had it in their herd and just want to “cover up” that with the vax. Because any vaxxed goat will show pos for so many years after. So how do you truly know.
     
  15. Calistar

    Calistar Well-Known Member

    I too would never buy from a herd with CL or buy a goat who had been vaccinated for it. And I especially wouldn't buy one who had been vaccinated and then been in contact with CL positive goats. Not only would that goat always test as positive because of the vaccine, (not something I want to have to explain to buyers!) there's just no way to know whether the vaccine was effective or if she'll have abscesses pop up later down the road. And as someone else mentioned, even if she doesn't have it there's the possibility of her bringing it to your farm on her hooves. There are just too many risks and uncertainties.
     
  16. Iluvlilly!

    Iluvlilly! Well-Known Member

    Apr 6, 2019
    Wisconsin
    How do you know the whole herd was clean?
     
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  17. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I would not vaccinate for CL. Same reason I don’t recommend the pneumonia vaccine.

    Don’t introduce an issue to a herd that doesn’t have a problem.

    Obviously if pneumonia is a common problem, then the vaccine makes sense.

    If you have healthy, CL negative goats, don’t introduce CL to your herd, in can backfire.
     
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  18. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Do know, many breeders now have CL vaccinated their herd, to protect them. The vaccine is a killed version. Not live.

    It doesn't always mean they had CL in their herd. They may take the goats to shows, afraid of exposure.
    We can not assume why the breeders who do vaccine do so.

    Here is a great article about the CL vaccine, explained in detail.
    Very long read.

    I for one, do not vaccinate for it. Haven't got brave enough.

    Here is the article:
    CASEOUS LYMPHADENITIS
    Misconceptions About the Disease and the CL Vaccine
    In May 2012, Texas Vet Lab, Inc. of San Angelo, Texas announced the US government approval of the first vaccine to control Caseous Lymphadenitis in goats. Since that announcement, questions have arisen that I will address in this article.
    Some goat raisers oppose vaccination because testing for CL does not distinguish between a goat that has been vaccinated with the CL vaccine and one that is infected with the organism. This position doesn't hold up under analysis. Vaccines are made from the substance being vaccinated against and they work by "tricking" the goat's immune system into mounting a response to a modified (usually "killed") version of that bacteria. A "modified" or "killed" bacteria cannot infect the goat. Of course the goat is going to test "positive" for CL once it has been vaccinated. A good immune system will mount a vigorous attack against the killed organism and produce antibodies. This is how a vaccine works. Responsible producers should want to eradicate a disease via vaccination rather than raising a herd of naive (never vaccinated) goats that might contract the disease if they are exposed. Smallpox and polio were eradicated in the USA through widespread vaccination of the population. That was a good thing. Blood tests for CL are not 100% accurate; false positives and false negatives are a possibility. Testing the pus is the only way to be 100% sure what the organism is. Are you as a producer willing to risk the possibility of false positive, false negative, or "borderline" test results so you can have goats that test "negative" for CL at a single point in time? This is not a responsible way to raise goats.
    A "positive" blood test means that the goat possesses antibodies to the disease. It does not mean that the goat is a carrier or shedder of the bacteria or is infected with that organism. A positive titer means that the goat's immune system has encountered that organism before, either naturally or by vaccination, and its immune system has either mounted a response against it or it has received passive antibodies from its mother. A "positive" goat may never display clinical signs of CL (abscesses) nor does it have to be contagious to other goats. EXPOSED DOES NOT MEAN INFECTED. So vaccinate and stop worrying!
    I would much rather own goats that test positive because they have been vaccinated to prevent CL than susceptible-to-disease goats that test negative. Remember, a negative test means "negative" at a single point in time, i.e. when the blood was drawn for the test. Like an inspection on a house you are buying, there is no guarantee that the equipment will be in the same condition beyond that single moment in time when the inspection was done. Vaccination provides some promise of continuing protection against disease. No vaccine is 100%, and the efficiency of the goat's immune system has much to do with how it processes the benefits that the vaccine provides, but a vaccinated goat is much less likely to develop CL than an unvaccinated goat. There is no such thing as a "clean" or "disease free" herd.
    With the CL vaccine for goats from Texas Vet Lab, some swelling at the injection site can be expected. The injection-site "knot" should be firm (not soft). If it is soft, it could be caused by bacteria on the needle or on the surface of the skin and may need to be drained. Do not inject Formalin into these knots. These knots are vaccine granulomas and are a result of the goat's immune response to the vaccine. The adjuvant (vaccine's carrier) and the antigen (active ingredient) are recognized as foreign bodies by the goat's immune system and an inflammatory response occurs at the injection site. They usually resolve themselves over time and that timeframe is dependent upon the size of the granuloma. If the goat is going to slaughter, the granuloma will come off with the hide. If the goat is breeding stock or a show animal and you want the granuloma gone, lance and drain and flush with iodine. It is likely a sterile abscess, staph, or arcanobacterium pyogenes. It is not CL.
    When administering the Texas Vet Lab vaccine to protect against Caseous Lymphadenitis, use an 18 gauge needle and give the vaccine SQ (under the skin) at the neck because the neck is where the largest number of lymph glands exist and this bacteria usually enters the body via the mouth. Give the first injection on one side of the neck and the follow-up booster injection (on never-before-vaccinated goats) on the other side of the neck. Taking the chill off the vaccine by removing the bottle from the refrigerator and putting it in a climate-controlled environment for a short time increases its flow through the syringe and is more comfortable for the goat. Vaccinate all non-pregnant and non-lactating goats and yearlings, including those testing positive for CL and all goats with visible abscesses. Some vaccines are being used "curatively" as well as preventatively; this is one of those vaccines.

    USDA labeling does not permit the claim that the vaccine prevents the disease. No vaccine of any kind prevents disease in 100% of the population to which it is targeted.


    Direct link to facebook page for full story.

    https://www.facebook.com/onioncreek...e-and-the-cl-vaccinein-may-2/949081261951285/
     
  19. Jessica84

    Jessica84 Well-Known Member

    Oct 27, 2011
    California
    Yes! I vaccinate for CL (well I didn’t last year because I’m kinda on the fence about still doing so) but I thought long and hard about it and decided, at the time, it was the best thing to do. Not because I was trying to hide anything but because I do not test yearly. The vaccine would be my safety net IF one ended up coming down with CL. Maybe from one of the kids goats that was at the fair or a false negative goat that I purchased. I am very picky about where I buy my animals from, but crap happens.
    BUT I would absolutely not fault someone for passing on a vaccinated goat. We all have to do what we feel is right for our herd. I do kinda regret just vaccinating everyone and not slowly testing them all for a bit of proof that they were negative before the vaccine. At the time it didn’t really matter if the does I was selling did test negative because I was still kinda working up to a good herd of goats so I had a bunch of my “culls” (bad moms, slow growing kids, fence jumper and so on) the last few years the ones I have been selling was simply to make room for better. Absolutely great goats that I wanted to replace with something better. I kinda felt bad for some of them that no one would buy because of the vaccine. Which is why I’m on the fence about going on with it.
    And no it is not a live vaccine. So it’s not something you are bringing into your herd like with say the ORD vaccine.
     
  20. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California