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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
what recessive gene combination(s) give cream?:confused:

I know most cream-colored goats are Awht - . But that's a dominant Awht gene which would require one of the parents to be a pheomelanin-based color (red, apricot, cream, white etc).

We just got a cream colored alpine x angora kid with a BLACK brother.

Dad is light chocolate angora --> a a Bl_

Due to the black baby and another black half-sibling (same dad) I know that Slade's hidden B-allele is either b+ (black) or b (liver red aka medium brown).

Mom is a chamoisee alpine --> Asc a b+_

I know mom is hiding the a allele thanks to the black kid. That was a bit of a surprise as she has no solid colors in her background or among her kids (just chamoisee). Give that mom has no history (pedigree or kids) of anything other than regular chamoisee, I would have assumed that mom's hidden B-allele was another b+ -- but can't really say that for certain.

Dad has copper and cream in his pedigree. The creams in his background act like recessives - they all come from the following combination -- redcheek x taupe silver/brown. Each of the creams in the pedigree is the sire to a copper red. {note, I don't have the names on the pedigree - just the colors that the owner gave me to play with genetics, the three cream bucks MIGHT all be the same goat - the copper reds include both bucks and does}. From what I've been able to glean, taupe/silver brown seems to be the same genetics as light chocolate -- aabl_. Redcheek would be Arc_b+_

I was assuming the copper reds and creams in dad's pedigree were due to the Er (recessive red) gene. But everything I have read suggests that this gene is common only in angoras - extremely rare in other breeds. What are the chances a purebred chamoisee alpine would be hiding that?:confused:

I could see the possibility that cream is just a very light version of chocolate -- does anyone know whether there are other genetic factors (say common in alpines AND angoras) that would lighten either light chocolate (bl-) or liver red (bb) all the way to a cream shade?

OR know of any other genetic combinations that give cream?

Thanks!

If interested in genetic puzzles - visit my site http://minifluffsrabbitry.weebly.com/goat-color-genetics-102.html
for the full story of this year's breedings - 6 does (3 pygoras, 2 alpines and a alpine-boer cross) all bred to the same angora buck.
 

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Boers & Nubians
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So that is your site! I found it a few months ago and refer it to people when they ask about genetics. Very good information! But, I am totally clueless on this topic... :confused: All that I know about genetics has been taught to me by your page!
 

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To make this more fun. Angoras can carry Dominate Black only found in Angoras.
Your chocolate could be B modified add silver, get cream.
Chamiosee can express silver and so can Bezoar, both can range from dark bay brown to very pale silver. A silver bezoar must get silver from both sides to express I found out this year. If your Alpine is carrying a modifier for very light Chamoisee, that could be it. He got the modifier but, not the color pattern.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
tan bellies on the chamoisee. I took them for San Clemente gene because they have so much dark on their shoulders/forequarters/neck .... but I could see bezoar as possible too. Is bezoar more common in alpines? Photo of the does is at the link...

Thanks trinity -- glad you found it useful. Not my original information, but I got frustrated ferreting info from many different sources so I thought it might be useful to others to compile it in one place.

I knew about the dominant black gene. Is it truly dominant black (always looks black) or a dominant eumelanin (which could express as black or brown, depending on the B-gene)? I can trace an unbroken line of chocolates through his pedigree - so if they can be ED then he could be as well.

I've assumed Slade was hiding the recessive red gene due to the coppers in his background and his copper son (who his breeder kept to replace him). That one we saw and he was truly a stunning solid bright orange that didn't fade -- had to have been ErEr. But Slade could be EDEr (in addition to aa) -- which might explain why we are getting so many solid colored kids.

So far, Slade has sired for us:
1 light grey (from a ticked dalmatian nigerian doe - her dam was grey)
1 black and 1 chocolate (from a white pygora doe)
1 white and 1 apricot (from a white pygora doe)
2 blue-eyed chocolates (from a blue-eyed white pygora doe)
1 chamoisee from an alpine doe
1 black and 1 cream (from an alpine doe).

It could also explain how we got solid kids out of an alpine that had no solids (making 'a' seem unlikely) in her background!



Silver? Explain please! I haven't run across any references to a silver gene in goats before!? Is it like silver in rabbits (si gene) that causes silver guard hairs (a sort of roan effect, but not the roan gene - silver effects only guard hairs in rabbits, while roan - not seen in rabbits but in many other mammals - effects random hairs)? Or is it a dilution gene (like d in rabbits or p in guinea pigs) causing an even dilution of eumelanin through the whole coat (e.g., black to blue-grey, chocolate to beige)? It does sound like a recessive gene by your description. Each of the creams in Slade's pedigree had a dam listed as taupe/silver brown. I found a couple of pictures of 'taupe/silver brown' angoras online, but to my eyes they didn't look that much different than the milk chocolates -- except that their faces weren't quite as warm tone. I couldn't find anything re the genetics of that color and assumed it must be a modifier on aabl-.

Anyway, if I read you right, you are suggesting the cream could be ED_bl_ (or aabl_ ?) with a silver modifier lightening the 'light chocolate' to cream.

A quick google search isn't giving me ANYTHING on silver genes for goats. Found some interesting info on silver dapples in horses (which can give a cream color called taffy) - but that's a dominant gene so not what I have here. Can you point me in a direction to look?
 

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This is all just ideas. There isn't a lot written on goats although Phil Spoonenburg is working on it.
The color I call silver is as below on my Bezoar Buck. A very light brown/gray. Bezoar is very common in Alpines and is dominate.


I bred him to several does last year of many colors including a pure white and a pure black. Every baby born was a Bezoar pattern. Darker colored then him, some very dark but definitely showing bezoar. The most interesting ones were the twins from my Cou Clair doe. The girl is really dark chocolate with black face and prominent bezoar markings. The boy expresses peacock and bezoar. The buck modified the peacock to chocolate and tan making him a very loud colored two tone bezoar type chamois. So there is a lightening gene expressing itself from him.

In order for your doe to produce a solid colored kid or two either she's hiding black or the chocolates and creams are modified dominant black. I would think.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Dolly has a much darker neck and head than this guy. I will try to get a good photo of her in the next few days to post.
 

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Both of your does are bezoars, they may have another pattern gene..
look at my website and that might help you with your color genetics pge. I breed Alpines, great for color genetics considering I get a lot of color. My herdsire is a bezoar, got the pattern from his dam, the dark part from his sire.
I put up lots of photos of my goats and all the kids that were sired by Jasper.

Let me know what genetics you think are behind each of my goats, I can provide more photos if you like.
I love color genetics and have been researching all about them.

Bezoar Alpines can throw solid blacks, they can hide that gene .
My buck Jasper sired a sundgau doeling, the doeling's dam is a bezoar/chamoisee. Sundgaus are Solid Blacks with Swiss Markings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I had originally thought Dolly had to have two different pattern genes to get the coloring I was seeing - which wasn't a very good match to any of the 'standard' patterns. That's why I was confused to get a black baby which I throught meant she had to be carrying a for her second pattern gene -- which essentially means all her pattern came from just one of the others. But if the black baby is a dominant eumelanin from his solid milk chocolate dad, then she could still have two pattern genes.

My understanding of the gene interaction in the A-series in goats is that 'phaeomelanin rules' -- i.e., if the genes are heterozygous (different from each other) and one says 'make phaeomelanin' and the other says 'make eumelanin' then the phaeomelanin wins and that portion of the goat turns phaeomelanin (tan-red). Which means that if a part of the goat is eumelanin (black/chocolate) the goat cannot hide a gene that would make that portion of the coat phaeomelanin (red-tan-cream) So if Dolly had even one bezoar gene, her neck would be phaeomelanin. -- which doesn't mean that she isn't carrying the silver modifiers if they are common in alpines.

On your site...
Jenna Vieve - close match to the peacock (cou clair pattern) - Apk gene is dominant.

Jasper - close match to bezoar - A+ gene is dominant

Kai - solid eumelanin - recessive aa

King of Hearts - close match to the peacock (cou clair pattern) - Apk gene is dominant.

Kada - very little eumelanin - just a bit of facial striping. likely black mask - Abm gene dominant. (though some 'interference patterns' combining two genes can do similar things - e.g., San Clemente and Peacock in opposition - Asc and Apk give a mostly phaoemelanin pattern)

Padme - close match to the peacock (cou clair pattern) - Apk gene is dominant.

Bianca - trickier. I haven't quite figured out how to classify the two-tone chamoisee (which have two distinct shades of phaeomelanin due to modifier genes). Her only true eumelanin (black) is on her head and spine, which would suggest black mask. However, I've read (but don't understand) that most two-tone chamoisees are genetic peacock in which the darker portion (normally eumelanin from the peacock gene) is replaced with the darker shade of phaeomelanin. Wish I understood the genetics of this better as I think the two-tone chamoisees are pretty.

Bay - also looks black mask (Bm) to me, with the eumelanin restricted to the head, spine and legs. ... she's got a partial white belt and white back legs, which I assume is due to one of more of the 'spotting' genes. Interesting that in the later photos those seem to be filling in, which suggest a ticked gene in play as well.

Cricket Song - very similar to Bay.

Forest Rose - Apk. Interesting how pale her phaeomelanin is. Is this what you call silver?

Cinnabon Stix - Is her belly dark or is that just shadow? I'd almost say badgerface, except the lower legs are white instead of dark.
 

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I know this is an old thread, but I'm bumping it cuz I ran across it looking for info on color genetics and I love finding another junky! Lol. I propose a possible solution to this puzzle. If the sire is indeed a dominant black through ED is it possible that he's hiding a dominant red (A Wt) through his unexpressed agouti locus? This seems more logical to me than eumalanin being somehow lightened to such an extreme.

However I have to point out that recessive red (Er) is possible in breeds other than angora - my friend and I did some extensive tracking on a particular Nubian herd and determined that their bloodlines carry both dominant agouti red as well as the recessive Er. To make it even more interesting we've hypothesized that they may have both originated from the same goat as they all seem to trace back to him. Impossible to prove though.
 

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Thank you for resurrecting this thread. I LOVE genetics
 
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