The Goat Spot Forum banner
21 - 40 of 41 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
15,928 Posts
So… I have minerals that include bovetech. It’s to treat cattle… do you think that would be a good idea for goats?
I have only been using the mineral w/o it since we don’t want the horses to get into it. (Basically I give it to the horses and goats eat theirs)
But I could put some of the medicated minerals in their goat pen
Not a professional here or anything but I’m going to say no. I remember years ago I fed a medicated cattle feed and it did crap for the kids but I looked and can’t find the feed I was feeding. But I looked up the bovetech and this is what it says:

Control of coccidiosis caused by Eimeria bovis and E. zuernii in cattle up to 800 pounds, as well as in replacement dairy calves

And then this is what is listed for the RUMENSIN in the goat specific feed:

For the prevention of coccidiosis caused by Eimeria crandallis, E. christenseni and E. ninakohlyakimovae

So from my understanding when I was looking into why the feed didn’t work years ago is as we know cattle cocci and goat cocci can’t cross to other species, and that’s because although both are cocci, they are different cocci.
If someone is reading this and that is totally wrong you are more then welcome to correct me!
Also the thing with forcing the medicated in feeds, minerals, and water is you have to make sure the animal consumes the proper amount. Water as we know on cold days they don’t consume as much as they might possibly should, minerals they pick at it here or there but some days won’t touch it, the feed, how I do it is they have free choice creep feeder and I don’t stop the prevention treatment until they are REALLY digging into it. But even then I have still had a handful over the years that have needed to be treated so it’s not totally guaranteed that it will keep cocci at bay.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
Not a professional here or anything but I’m going to say no. I remember years ago I fed a medicated cattle feed and it did crap for the kids but I looked and can’t find the feed I was feeding. But I looked up the bovetech and this is what it says:

Control of coccidiosis caused by Eimeria bovis and E. zuernii in cattle up to 800 pounds, as well as in replacement dairy calves

And then this is what is listed for the RUMENSIN in the goat specific feed:

For the prevention of coccidiosis caused by Eimeria crandallis, E. christenseni and E. ninakohlyakimovae

So from my understanding when I was looking into why the feed didn’t work years ago is as we know cattle cocci and goat cocci can’t cross to other species, and that’s because although both are cocci, they are different cocci.
If someone is reading this and that is totally wrong you are more then welcome to correct me!
Also the thing with forcing the medicated in feeds, minerals, and water is you have to make sure the animal consumes the proper amount. Water as we know on cold days they don’t consume as much as they might possibly should, minerals they pick at it here or there but some days won’t touch it, the feed, how I do it is they have free choice creep feeder and I don’t stop the prevention treatment until they are REALLY digging into it. But even then I have still had a handful over the years that have needed to be treated so it’s not totally guaranteed that it will keep cocci at bay.
Good to know- thanks for looking it up for me 😅
Didn’t really mean to make you do homework, just thought where you’re a cattle person that perhaps you had info.
I won’t feed it to my goats.
 

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Clove is most common, oregano is said to reduce the load, garlic of course...also digestion soothing herbs such as ginger, Slippery elm (which is a bark) all support the system.
It looks like garlic is the only one of those that either of Molly's formulas contains. GI soothers seem like a good idea too, considering how damaging coccidia is. That's one thing I'd been reading about Fir Meadows, because I tend to get clumpy poops the day after I give Molly's. I'm guessing the herbs themselves may be slightly irritating so adding soother could help counter that. I'll look over LOH's formula too and keep coccidia in mind for deciding which way to go. I'm still leery of using wormwood too often or in pregnant animals, so I may end up buying two different formulas.
 

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I remember some years ago it was explained why to give everything 3 weeks. Something along the lines of treating it at the treatable stage but before it starts to cause damage to the intestines. Im pretty sure it was @goathiker that took the time to write it all up on here but I can’t find it.
But anyways I have been treating at 3 and 6 weeks, by then they are usually eating their medicated grain pretty good so I just keep a eye on any signs which 90% are usually good from then on. This year though with such wonky weather I went ahead and treated them again at weaning
Not a professional here or anything but I’m going to say no. I remember years ago I fed a medicated cattle feed and it did crap for the kids but I looked and can’t find the feed I was feeding. But I looked up the bovetech and this is what it says:

So from my understanding when I was looking into why the feed didn’t work years ago is as we know cattle cocci and goat cocci can’t cross to other species, and that’s because although both are cocci, they are different cocci.
If someone is reading this and that is totally wrong you are more then welcome to correct me!
Also the thing with forcing the medicated in feeds, minerals, and water is you have to make sure the animal consumes the proper amount. Water as we know on cold days they don’t consume as much as they might possibly should, minerals they pick at it here or there but some days won’t touch it, the feed, how I do it is they have free choice creep feeder and I don’t stop the prevention treatment until they are REALLY digging into it. But even then I have still had a handful over the years that have needed to be treated so it’s not totally guaranteed that it will keep cocci at bay.
The life cycle for coccidia is 3 weeks (longer for worms) so that makes sense. If I do my first treatment at 2 weeks any that they've already picked up wouldn't have had time to start multiplying though. Any refugia could start reproducing by the next week, but assuming that's very few (I had zero on post-treatment fecals, and I ran them at high concentration) then follow-up treatments would be for new ones they ingested post-treatment which would set the clock back to 5 weeks. I could do those two dates and spot check at 8 weeks to decide whether to do an additional dose then. I'll probably still do another at weaning to be safe, especially for smaller kids that would still be more vulnerable. That's also when worms start ramping up so I don't want them getting hit on both fronts.

I don't subscribe to medicated feed - not only may it be ineffective, but constant low doses increases resistance. That's why the majority of feed/water through meds went VFD, because that resistance applies to any organism that's affected by the medication even if it's not the target and can impact other species as well. Plus it prevents their own immune system from developing in response to normal exposures. IMHO that's more likely to be the reason cattle feed wouldn't work. Most medications are multi species and often treat multiple conditions; I doubt the additive only targets one exact type of coccidia. But the concentration is formulated for cattle which could be completely inadequate for goats.
Tl;dr I only treat individual animals as needed with accurate dosing.

This is also the first year I've started giving any concentrated feed in an effort to counteract the setback from coccidia. The ones who were already badly affected before treatment are still small but improving, and growth has picked up on the rest. They start nibbling at it at a couple weeks old, and all of the kids born after I treated are growing like gangbusters. My late kids have never performed well in the past; I don't think it's just the feed since several of them aren't eating a significant amount yet (including the fastest-growing), which makes me wonder if they've had subclinical infections that I missed without the symptoms tip me off :confused:
 

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
We do Zuricox 3w, 6w, 9w, 12w. Along with Equimax at 3w and 12w as we deal with tapes here. Sometimes I might skip one dose depending on weather or the animal itself. I have some that don't seem to need any interventions. We use LOH herbals as prevention in between. After the 12w it's only if I see issues, I do a fecal and will treat if necessary, or if a particularly wet season.
I have tapes here too - which are usually considered to be not worth treating because they don't actually attack the animal itself and generally do little harm, but last year I had a weanling dump an ENORMOUS load of them after a dose of herbs - poop chock full of them for two weeks!! I don't know how it managed to get that bad so quickly but I can't imagine that it was benign. Her look improved and she started gaining weight. She was also one who'd been affected by coccidia so she was already vulnerable, and with all my other parasites I don't need any comorbidities. However, I rely on ivermectin to treat strongyles, and dosing it frequently increases resistance, so I've been using safeguard for the tapes (which has so much strongyle resistance already that I don't expect it to be useful for them.) I know from that doeling that the herbs do kill them (and it was only the milder #2 formula) but I want to cover my bases. And I'm still not dosing that on a set schedule - only the herbs regularly; I add the safeguard for any that are looking rough or have them on fecals. Three-way dosing with ivomec for ones that are in worse shape/low FAMACHA, high strongyle FEC, or have lungworms (nasty buggers.)

I'm not too worried about coccidia post-weaning - it usually strikes young; by that point they've either built up resistance or the damage is already done. I've never seen any significant number of oocysts in older animals, nor the telltale scours. Just worms; lots of worms. Hopefully knocking out the coccidia will help them be less susceptible to those. I also wean by taping teats to minimize stress and don't separate until the does go into breeding pens, by which point the kids are pretty well over it.
 

·
Registered
Kinder Goat Breeder
Joined
·
6,143 Posts
It looks like garlic is the only one of those that either of Molly's formulas contains.
And I hate to say, that garlic in dried format doesn't do much. Garlic needs to be fresh to do it's thing. I can't remember what the compound in it is called, but I recall @NigerianDwarfOwner707, talking about that fact.
 

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
And I hate to say, that garlic in dried format doesn't do much. Garlic needs to be fresh to do it's thing. I can't remember what the compound in it is called, but I recall @NigerianDwarfOwner707, talking about that fact.
Did some looking and that doesn't seem to be true. Freezing and cooking do damage it, but various dried forms appear to still have good efficacy. (The range of studies on overall efficacy is amusing - from useless to miracle cure and everything in between :LOL: )
 

·
Registered
Kinder Goat Breeder
Joined
·
6,143 Posts
Did some looking and that doesn't seem to be true. Freezing and cooking do damage it, but various dried forms appear to still have good efficacy. (The range of studies on overall efficacy is amusing - from useless to miracle cure and everything in between :LOL: )
Wow. That's great to know. Thanks for looking into that. :)
 

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 · (Edited)
Wow. That's great to know. Thanks for looking into that. :)
I asked my dad too who's an herbalist and I'm waiting to hear back, but that study seems pretty reliable. According to another (older) study it doesn't appear to actually kill adult worms but disrupts the hatching process - the animals were still shedding, but further testing a few days later showed dead eggs and no larvae. If that's accurate it's more effective at reducing spreading than treating the actual animal. I'd never rely on garlic as a solo treatment but it seems to be a standard ingredient in any wormer formula, and I don't think so many experienced herbalists would throw it in without good evidence that it's useful.
 

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I've been digging into research for anything that might heal the damage done by coccidia and found a couple things that might be useful, without risk:

https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/bartell_shoshana_m_200605_ms.pdf
Improved GI development AND protection against coccidia. Chicks, but very promising
http://cyxb.magtech.com.cn/EN/10.11686/cyxb20140436
Less relevant, but shows that it does have positive results with goats. Available as cheap OTC supplement.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6443889/
Also chickens, but specifically shown to help repair damage so the intestines can return to proper function. Readily available from brassicas, which they happen to love! And supplement form, but brassicas have other nutritional benefits as well, and I was just looking into ordering seeds for my fields. Easy enough to buy some for kids to munch on in the meantime.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19490976.2021.1921926
Compares the content and benefits of various brassicas. DIM was specifically mentioned in the previous study, so brussels sprouts or kale are probably the top choice.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcimb.2021.751481/full
Long read and some of it's over my head, but excellent information. Not sure how much they would help with long term recovery, but this shows just how important probiotics are to coccidia treatment - not just to make up for the antibiotic treatment. Giving that treatment plus following up with fresh cud probiotics essentially resets the gut flora to allow beneficial strains to proliferate, rather than the pathogenic species that are symbiotic with coccidia.
My vet told me that she doesn't put much stock in Probios since it's only a few generic strains and always uses cud transplants for any GI problems. Rather than risk my fingers every time I've started brewing them with great results. Cud + molasses + hay pellets (they feed on fiber) in a bottle filled with water and set in a warm area. This way they're immediately available and can be drenched rather than trying to shove a wad down their throat. After reading this I added some of it to the water bucket in the kids' creep stall, along with some extra molasses for taste. I might do peppermint too since they really aren't fond of any cud that's not their own, but someone has drank some since I added it so must not be too bad. If nothing else it'll ensure their rumens are in top shape and food is thoroughly broken down by the time it reaches the intestines to make the nutrients as bioavailable as possible.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,535 Posts
I use toltrazuril. I start the kids off at 3 weeks, then every 21 days/3 weeks until they are eating the full suggested amount of cocci medicated feed, usually around 4 months of age. I never realized I had a cocci issue until I tried the prevention with Toltrazuril and found my kids growthier, healthier and more food efficient. I am sold on it now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: toth boer goats

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I use toltrazuril. I start the kids off at 3 weeks, then every 21 days/3 weeks until they are eating the full suggested amount of cocci medicated feed, usually around 4 months of age. I never realized I had a cocci issue until I tried the prevention with Toltrazuril and found my kids growthier, healthier and more food efficient. I am sold on it now.
My younger ones born since I started are certainly growing better! They're starting to pass some of the older ones who were affected, despite adding feed.
I've had various problems since I moved to this property and I suspect they probably did have subclinical infections in previous years, but before moving here it wasn't an issue. They grew fine on hay and milk.
 

·
Registered
Goat Mentor
Joined
·
7,636 Posts
Allicin is just one component of garlic, garlic contains many other beneficial properties and many of them are lost in the drying process. When it comes to allicin, the drying technique changes the efficacy - " Allicin content decreased with an increase of drying temperature in both convective hot air-drying or freeze-drying. Moderate air temperatures (40 and 50°C) allowed a better allicin retention than higher temperatures (60°C). However, retention of allicin was more important in garlic samples freeze-dried at a temperature of 20°C."

Aside from studies, I also just know based on observations of thousands of goats that dried sources don't make a difference visibly, whereas raw daily garlic changes the game for immune support and parasite management.
 

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Allicin is just one component of garlic, garlic contains many other beneficial properties and many of them are lost in the drying process. When it comes to allicin, the drying technique changes the efficacy - " Allicin content decreased with an increase of drying temperature in both convective hot air-drying or freeze-drying. Moderate air temperatures (40 and 50°C) allowed a better allicin retention than higher temperatures (60°C). However, retention of allicin was more important in garlic samples freeze-dried at a temperature of 20°C."

Aside from studies, I also just know based on observations of thousands of goats that dried sources don't make a difference visibly, whereas raw daily garlic changes the game for immune support and parasite management.
Well, I'm not attempting to shove raw cloves down their throats, so whatever good it does dried is what they get. Based on that older study on anthelmintic efficacy I wouldn't put much stock in it anyway; certainly not by itself. Other things that actually kill the worms will also reduce spreading by default.
 

·
Registered
Goat Mentor
Joined
·
7,636 Posts
Well, I'm not attempting to shove raw cloves down their throats, so whatever good it does dried is what they get. Based on that older study on anthelmintic efficacy I wouldn't put much stock in it anyway; certainly not by itself. Other things that actually kill the worms will also reduce spreading by default.
I would not use garlic by itself, it is only one aspect of my multi-pronged regimen.
 

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #37 ·
I would not use garlic by itself, it is only one aspect of my multi-pronged regimen.
Same, which is why I'm fine with the dried that's already in wormer formulas. Already hard enough to get those down. As far as coccidia in particular it sounds like those other herbs are likely to have more benefit so I'll be looking into those in conjunction with medications. My plan is to use the toltrazuril for prevention but fall back on sulfa to treat any active cases that slip through. Gonna have to stock up before the new antibiotic regulations go into effect...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,717 Posts
My goats love raw garlic, so I guess I got lucky there. I did have to help my does learn to love it when they were little but both bucks liked it immediately. It’s the only thing in my bag of tricks the new little buckling I brought home Saturday likes. He won’t eat chewable vit c tablets, which my other goats think are candy, he won’t eat LOH herbs (even on an animal cracker with molasses), he won’t take the diluted essential oils no matter how I offer it, and he refuses cinnamon and clove and all the other things I feed for prevention. But he loves the garlic. So it’s a start. I chop it up, practically mince it for them at first, then it goes to just cut up slices or pieces. I’m still working on the rest. As a side note, I noticed when I started feeding it to my does a year ago, they stopped getting ticks. And we are in bad tick country. My chickens and turkeys love when I crush raw garlic for them and put in their food as a treat. So I haven’t yet had to shove it down a throat and don’t know that I would. I’m just happy my crew likes it.
 

·
www.wildheartsranch.org
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Discussion Starter · #39 ·
My goats love raw garlic, so I guess I got lucky there. I did have to help my does learn to love it when they were little but both bucks liked it immediately. It’s the only thing in my bag of tricks the new little buckling I brought home Saturday likes. He won’t eat chewable vit c tablets, which my other goats think are candy, he won’t eat LOH herbs (even on an animal cracker with molasses), he won’t take the diluted essential oils no matter how I offer it, and he refuses cinnamon and clove and all the other things I feed for prevention. But he loves the garlic. So it’s a start. I chop it up, practically mince it for them at first, then it goes to just cut up slices or pieces. I’m still working on the rest. As a side note, I noticed when I started feeding it to my does a year ago, they stopped getting ticks. And we are in bad tick country. My chickens and turkeys love when I crush raw garlic for them and put in their food as a treat. So I haven’t yet had to shove it down a throat and don’t know that I would. I’m just happy my crew likes it.
Lucky indeed! Very few of mine will take herbs with any kind of feed or even in the dosage balls, so I've gone to mixing it with applesauce and molasses to drench. A few actually like that; most don't care for it but don't mind too much since I shove treats in their mouth immediately. Kids are not pleased about it but they need all the help they can get so 🤷‍♀️ I suppose I could offer garlic and see if I get any takers, but any who don't eat it voluntarily are SOL. Not holding my breath.
 

·
I'm watching you
Joined
·
22,626 Posts
Yeah, be careful with garlic. It actually is poisonous to goats in high doses. Make sure that you check the strength of the type that you're using.

I no longer do much of anything. The herd has been with me for way too many years. I don't save weakling kids or lambs anymore. 75% do survive and thrive on their own.
 
21 - 40 of 41 Posts
Top