Considerations for new additions (opinions please)

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by pennylullabelle, Dec 7, 2009.

  1. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    Okay...because I can't seem to put the potato chip bag down I am thinking about two new potentional does. But I promise after these that's it!! I only have an acre and 4 stalls here...when we are done building our new place I will have a 12 stall barn and pastures. THEN I can get more. After these two does and the whether I'll have 4 does, 1 buck, and 1 whether. My husband has already told me he'll leave if I get any more then that, so I have to be good! :)

    Okay, doe option number one, tell me what you think:

    She is bred to Royal, the buck below her on that page. I am very happy with her overall appearance and her udder. And I have a great chance of blue eyes babies out of her and Royal! :love: :drool:
    Olivia (Capriola) has her listed for a friend. She has been very helpful and has answered lots of questions for me. This doe is a bit standoffish, but will warm up. She is super easy to milk and breed. Her heats are easy to detect and she labors and delivers easily on her without complication. She has had two sets of triples with two bucklings and a doe each, all blue eyes! Plus kidded two other times once with twins and another with triplets. This doe is very healthy - I am sure greatly due to Olivia and her current owner's efforts - having shown no health issues, signs of deficiencies, or mastitis. She is CAE and CL negative.

    Second doe, just a little doeling who'd I'd like to breed to my buck sometime next year:

    Again, I am excited about her overall appearance. Her dam and Sire can easily be found on the Hoofin It Ranch website. I didn't mean to pick to does with similar coloring, but I was looking for more character and type! Again, healthy. No kidding history, obviously. She is only 7 months old.

    I would LOVE any opinions as well as ideas for questions I can ask :)
  2. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    I like Blue Iris -- the only down fall I see is capacity -- after that many freshionings she should have greater capacity and I am not seeing it. If milking show are not your main concerns she certainly will give you some pretty babies, and bred to the right buck her kids could get greater capacity in their udders.

    Athena is not to bad -- I dont like that she is weak in the chine. She acquired this trait from her sire as her mom does not have this fault. It looks like her sire acquired this possibly from his dam -- but his sire is to set up to know for sure if he has it.
    Bred to a buck who has a very level topline you should get better show quality kids. She still may do well if you show her - I have a Grand Champion junior who is weak in the chine......but it is all who they are competing against as well, and who the judge is.

  3. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    Yes, what are you looking for, milk? show? or just pets? knowing that will help me to give you my opinion on them!
  4. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    Milk for sure. But dairy character in general for show is important as well as my kids will show in a few years.
  5. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member


    So I like Isis probably more so than the doeling in general apperance and dairy character
    The things I dont like about Isis is that yes she needs more capacity, but honestly her udder would not hold up to more capacity, you can see that her medial is quite weak which is causing her udder floor to round out at the bottom, with any more milk that medial might even give way to the weight.
    I probably would not have bred her to Royal Blue myself, since you see this same fault in his dam, look at her udder as a second freshener, and then look at it as a third freshener just a year later, she gained more capacity yes, but her medial gave way to the weight and her udder has taken that rounded out appearance at the bottom.
    I would be concerned about this for the future doelings milk capacity as well as potentially affecting them in their show career.

    Now I think Isis bred to the right buck could be a nice show doeling producer, but is probably not a show doe herself (at least in this area- not sure what the competition is like where you are located)

    For the doeling...Stacey hit it right on (and had a good eye!) with what she pointed out referring to her chine. It is dippy, and her sires is quite weak. Dippy chines unfortunatly only seem to get worse with age, which again could really affect her show career. Her mothers udder looks decent, but it is set pretty low and there also could be some medial trouble there.
    What I dont like is not being able to see a picture of her sire's dams udder, there is no picture and it states she is a not a show doe, this would concern me if I were looking for show quality kids. Was she not a show doe because of conformation? A prior injury? A bad udder??

    If I were you, and you definately wanted to get another doe, I would probably just get Isis, she is bred, and you could hang onto her kids to see what their udders turn out like, or sell the kids (and make back your money on you purchase from them) and breed her to a buck that would add medial strength and capacity to her daughters.

    Sorry that was so long drawn out and really nit-picky, but those are the things that ran through my head when asked to critique them
  6. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    Addie are we looking at teh same doe? because Camanna LK Royal Blue dam is CH Camanna FD Tasonni Blue

    Her Major Show Wins
    2009 - 4 times ADGA Grand Champion, 3 times Best of Breed, and once Best Udder, one time reserve Grand Champion (only shown six times in 2009)

    I dont see any faults with her udder??? good medials are hard to come by in nigerian dwarf goats.

    Blue Iris's udder has a nice medial - rear attachment, forudder and her teats point down. Honestly besides capacity I see no major faults. The udder isnt even shaved in those pictures but you can see the medial definition. I would be very happy to own that doe.
  7. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    Medial defination and medial strength are two different things

    When an udder takes on a rounded appearance at the bottom, it means the medial is not strong enough to hold the udder up in the two halves.

    In my opinion neither one of those does has a STRONG medial- you can see the big difference in the dam's udder between her second and third freshening udder.
    I am just saying with more milk (which is needed in Isis) that a strong medial will also be needed
  8. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    as a 4th freshioner (according to the information provided) I think Blue Iris has held up nicely -- capacity or not. Would she hold up to more milk? would her kids hold up to more milk? I would like to see freshioned daughters from Royal Blue before making any determinations on what he will or wont throw in that department and how his kids will do.

    I think we both can agree she is a nice doe with potential as do her kids have potential.
  9. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    Wow, I am learning a lot in a short amount of time! I had to google some of the terms, but I am catching on.

    I agree Iris is the better choice of the two. Even with low capacity her udder is overall nice and I'd be eager to see what I got from her and my buck Couragious. His dam (and her udder) can be see here: (I suspect the combination would produce an improvement)
    Once again for those of you who have not followed that link - go to Senior Does, the third gal down, Fandango. The dam to my buck.

    I am still deciding on Athena. I am going to visit her today and see how she is growing. I did not even notice her chine, but now that I look at both her and her buck, I see the default. But she would be bred to Courageous who has a sturdy level top line. So, once again, there is a chance of improvement. And I might also get the nice udder from Athena's mother. Worst case here is that I don't get what I want from this combination and have to find a buck who better compliments Athena's weaknesses or just sell all kids as pets. It's not my goal to produce mediocre goats though, if I am going to breed I want it to be to further improve them. So, again, I am still mulling her over. I also have the choice of Aurelia:

    But I do not like the dramatic dip before her tail or the high shoulders, it's hard to tell from the pictures but she also appears to be very slander in the hips and shoulders - possibly something she will grow out of. Of the two junior does at Hoofin It I like Athena much more.
  10. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    actually Aurelia rump isnt that bad (what you called the dip before her tail). her rear legs are set just a bit under her, if they were like an inch behind more then she would level off better.

    Withers should be high like that -- its called a natural uphill stance and high withers are desirable.

    I like her long neck and her nice legs.

    I like her much better then Athena.

    She is a huge improvement from her dam and sire.
  11. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
  12. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    She does look much better in the other two photos! :clap: But got an awkward pose in that first one I suppose.

    I know high withers are good, I just didn't like them compared to the dip before her tail. In the other two pictures she is standing more normal, has less of a dip, and so her whether look much more proportioned and correct. Thank you for finding those other pictures! :hug: I should have hunted a little better for them. The only thing about Aurelia that stops me is that her dam is related to the dam of my buck. So, I could not breed them...but I do have plans for a second buck down the line...hmm... :scratch:

    There's almost 2 feet of snow on the ground and I have an uphill driveway. I am not going anywhere! But as soon as it is safe to drive I will meet both of the young does!
  13. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    No those links i posted are not of Aurelia but of another doe -- it was just to show you how show stance can make a difference in how a goat looks.
  14. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    Haha right after I posted the message I was like...wait...and I went back to the site for Hoofin it. I was thinking "Aurelia doesn't have blue eyes...and I don't see a black spot on the front leg..."

    I realized it was Tulip :)

    I like Tulip! But she isn't one of the choices. I would like to see how Aurelia stands before going any further.
  15. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    I want to find info on bucks out of Iris and Royal before making too many assumptions here...

    But how would ya'll feel about a buck out of Iris/Royal this spring paired with Aurelia? Do you see any complimentary aspects, or areas one would possibly compensate for the other in future kids? This is ALL assumptions of course, just curious!

    Forgot to add: info on past bucks from this pair: (as kids)

    Here is Pepper Jack, the only buck I could find info on:
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    haha thats like couting your eggs before they are even chickens. I wouldnt even presume to make such predictions

    one kind of pairing will do awesome and then you do it gain or with another doe and it doesnt work out. Really its a lot of guess work to see which genetics mesh well with others.

    Athena and Aurelia are daughters of teh same buck - yet both does do not resemble each other. Their mothers are similarly built but one produced a fairly nice doe while the other not so much.

    Obviously this is just my opinion you will get different schools of thought on breedings.
  17. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    lol Well that's pretty much what I figured. It'd be a gamble, but all of it is! Not just from one pairing to the next but even one kid to the next from the same pair. I've had my share of this from dogs :)
  18. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007

    it never hurts though to ask for more pictures of each of the does you are looking at. Athena may have a better picture the next time or Aurelia may not be developing nicely.

    Are both does priced the same? if different is did she give a reason?
  19. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    I keep forgetting stuff when I go to post!

    ...Athena: aside from a weak chine, is there anything else about her or her dam that you do or do not like? The reason I ask is that I do not see a weak chine. I do not see a substantial dip in her back at the start of her ribs. However, I do see low shoulders compared to Aurelia.

    I will take lots more pictures myself and even post them here for more help with evaluation. Again, thanks so much for all the grate insight!

    We have not discussed price yet because the breeder may be interested in service from Courageous so this may consume a part of the price.
  20. SDK

    SDK New Member

    Jun 26, 2008
    Yucaipa ca
    ok i cant vouch for the lines in iris.. i think she's really pretty

    but i can vouch for the lines in athena.. she will MILK! the sire's line has made many really really nice does.. and my buck is his nephew.. actually when i was deciding on which buck to buy i went with my kevin over bo.. even though bo has an amazing body and his dam milks alot. i wanted to incorporate more twin creeks into my herd so i went with my buck..

    really cant go wrong with either doe out of bo