Copper ?

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by liz, Apr 20, 2009.

  1. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I noticed a month ago that Binky, has an orange/red colr to the fur on her hind legs...no where else, and Bootsie who has frosted ears also has that orangy color on the tops.....Bailey, Chief and Hank are also black and do not have this color change. Could this be a copper deficiency?

    They all have access to copper fortified loose minerals as well as a copper fortified grain mix....why would only the 2 does mentioned have the "signs" of copper deficiency.....they are in milk too.
     
  2. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    Possibly, it sure sounds like it. If you could get pictures that would be good.

    I feed minerals and feed with copper in it, but I still need to copper bolus every 3 months.

    You said both of the does in milk have the hair color change? It's probably because of the stress of carrying kids and then producing milk. So more copper is used up because copper plays a role in the immune system ad the immune system is under more stress during lactation and everything.
     

  3. bheila

    bheila New Member

    644
    Jan 9, 2009
    Kent, Wa
    Ditto to what RunAround said.

    My goats get loose minerals with cooper and feed with cooper and I still end up bolusing them. Instead of waiting for signs that they are deficient I'm going to bolus them every 6 months which was recommended to me by another goat pal. It's so frustrating when you do what you can for them and it's still not enough.
     
  4. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I do have a pic of Binky's legs...didn't get one of Bootsies ears.
    Binky freshened 5 weeks ago, and Bootsie 14 months ago
    [​IMG]




    Now, today I noticed that Binky's doeling Bonnie has the same color(reddish brown) on the backsides of her lower hind legs...the hair tips are black and the "color" is closer to the skin, I saw it because she had been lying down and the hair was ruffed up :shrug:
     
  5. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Anybody?

    I'm afraid of overdosing on ANYTHING as too much can be as bad as not enough....what can I do?
     
  6. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    I am with you Liz......I think maybe my Elwood needs copper, he has orange coloring on his flanks......but I'm also afraid of overdosing :shrug: ! If you figure it out... please share!
     
  7. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    Usually with copper deficiency they will have a fish tail and the light hairs look more like highlights on the end of the hair. Almost like someone put bleach on them. It's really hard to tell from the picture if it's copper deficiency or not. :shrug:
     
  8. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I have noticed that happening on the goats in their winter coat, once they shed out like look glossy black.

    A friends black horse gets brown like that in the winter but always sheds out to a glossy black (not all the black horses do this but two of hers do to some extent, they actually look medium brown!).

    I would assume it is her winter coat.
     
  9. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Thank you, she is still shedding out, they all pretty much are. I will wait and see if it does go away....if not then I'll go from there.
     
  10. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    yah I would jsut make sure she is actually eating the minerals - if there is a way to find that out. If you find that the minerals are out by the next morning I would add enough so it isnt out that quicky to ensure she has time to eat some and gets enough
     
  11. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    I usually rely more on the texture of the hair over the color of it, as black goats tend to get sun bleaced as well. I good sign is the fish tail as was mentioned before. And when the coat starts to take on the bristle pad effect. They will get a real course kinked type of hair when they are copper defficient.
    beth
     
  12. rebelshope

    rebelshope New Member

    908
    Sep 20, 2008
    Wisconsin
    In horses, non true black horses will get sun bleached by the sun. I would assume that the same could happen in goats.
     
  13. bheila

    bheila New Member

    644
    Jan 9, 2009
    Kent, Wa
  14. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Binky, Bootsie have the discoloration......as well as the split tails.....Bailey has some discoloration and no tail split...Hank is as black as coal and has a tail split, the lighter girls....Angel, Tilly and Heidi...I can't tell...no discoloration and no tail splits?

    Obviously they are not getting what they need......what can I give that won't "over do" on the copper?
     
  15. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I came across PDF for Sweetlix that gives a formula for figuring on exactly how much copper would be available to a goat if they were to take in approximately an ounce of minerals a day....according to that formula and the amount of copper in parts per million.....which my mineral is a minimum of 500ppm copper.....it says that a 200# meat doe would need to get 25-55mg of copper.....which the mineral I use would provided 14.2mg of copper..... my goats are a good deal smller than a meat goat...so I would assume that there is something else going on that is preventing them from absorbing the copper....ad there is no way to check with a blood draw as copper is stored in the liver and I won't subject my kids to a liver biopsy.

    The formula is this: amount of copper in ppm X 1oz divided by 35.2( ex.. 500X1 divided by 35.2= 14.2)

    :hair: :?


    Molybdenum is a type of metal that also has nitrogen and carbon that prevents the animal from using the copper it takes in....commonly found in areas were mining had been done :idea:

    Thru alot of research....even though I am supplementing enough copper with the minerals as well as their grain mix..it is a mute point...my acreage had been subjected to extensive strip mining years ago...therefore the plantlife that the goats are eating is contributing to their inability to absorb the copper....now to figure out how to remedy it without causing toxicity :scratch:
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    maybe they arent eating enough of the minerals to be getting the amount they need. Just because the minerals are there and they are gone doenst mean the actual goats are eating enough.

    I would start leaving out more then you usual do to see if more is eaten
     
  17. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I have a 3 foot tall gravity fed PVC mineral feeder that the girls have access to freechoice...the boys have a 1 foot tall feeder(smaller due to space) and have access frechoice as well. I see them with their faces in them quite often and the kids have even learned where and what it is, they were in it today while I was cleaning.

    I added info to my previous post that may explain why they are "looking" copper deficient.
     
  18. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    Ok.....Liz, what about your water....is it well water and does it have a lot of iron or sulfur? I read somewhere that those 2 things can effect the absorbtion of copper.....just a thought, I've been wondering the same about mine. I just talked to my vet today and he says that if they are on a goat mineral that they should be getting enough copper, but we didn't get into talking about them not absorbing it..(I was there for my pups and we just talked a bit about the goats).....he says there is studies out there on the whole copper bolusing of goats, but there has not been enough evidence that he feels comfortable with bolusing my goats right now because of the whole toxicity aspect and it going to the liver....... :shrug: ! I did change minerals about 3wks ago.....went from Purina to Hoeggers Golden Blend, my guys really have taken to them.....more so then the Purina, so maybe I'll see some improvment in Elwood, he is my black goat.
     
  19. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    My well water is VERY high in iron....evident by the orange spots in my laundry when I use bleach......as well as the fact that the place was mined before we bought it.Looks like I'll be collecting rainwater and refridgerating it for them. :shrug:
     
  20. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    We must have been posting about the same time....just saw your post on your property being old mining grounds.... :type: !