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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A week ago we had a Nigerian Dwarf give birth to a single kid. but the ears were wrong. they were too long and drooped. We spent the next week trying to figure out what happened.
we decided that a boar buck has to be the father.
i have always said that mother nature knows not to let a baby get too big. and wont let a kid get too big.
Now i have evidence that i am right.
So the next time some one panics about a buck breading too small a doe. tell them about my nige tryst with a boar
 

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I'd say you were lucky, and beat the odds by having a wide doe, a buck who isn't known for giant kids, and your doe not being over fed and under exercised.

I'm glad she's alright.
 

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How large is your ND?
 

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One of my friends breeds Nigerian Dwarfs and LaManchas, and for years she had accidents where a LaMancha buck would breed a Nigie doe. She never had problems with the kids being too large until the last time it happened. A big single kid got stuck with the head back and no room to turn it. The vet came out and was able to pull the kid (which was dead by then) and tore the doe's uterus in the process. She died the next day.
 

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Im glad it turned out well for you but I agree with whats been said, while there are many cases where it turned out good..there are many more that do not. It's not as black and white as we like to think..there are factors that come to play..size, feeding, genetics etc.. Breeding a large breed buck to a mini breed doe is not recommended ever. Would not take the chance it doesn't turn out well.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
our ND are 20 to 23 inches at the withers
I am talking mostly about genetics and natural size controls that are in the doe. There may be some husbandry factors but we feed for mutable births to avoid pregnancy toxemia and the like. so i do question the husbandry point of view
 

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we feed for mutable births to avoid pregnancy toxemia
Can you elaborate on this? I'm just not grasping what you are saying here.
We are saying, that your does are not overweight. Are you saying you think they are?
And when you say you feed for multiple births, are you talking about flushing with grain for the release of multiple eggs? Or?

I've never had a case of toxemia ever, singles or multiples, so I'm definitely no expert on that condition. Are you saying that multiples prevent toxemia? Or your feed regimen to support multiples prevents toxemia? or that flushing with grain for multiple eggs prevents toxemia?

You are straightforward and laconic, and I respect that. But sometimes a sparseness of words can be confusing...
 

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From my experiences with animals in general, if a larger breed male breeds a smaller female then you always have a chance of birthing issues. Now after saying that, if you do not over feed the female during the pregnancy process, then the chances of birthing issues are diminished a great deal. Hereford bull breeds dexter cow and cow has no issues birthing calf. I have had this cross myself. Nature will have a huge impact and the female will normally have no issues birthing her offspring. However if the female is fed high protein feed and especially in the later term then look out. Issues are going to happen. That is my take on the subject.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I am so sorry i meant Pregnancy disease. Toxemia is caused by having fat does. Most of my does are not fat. Pregnancy disease is when the doe is consuming more calories than the doe can take in. and slowly staves.
so i feed to keep weight on.
Since i have no idea how many kids my does are carrying , i feed so the quads are strong and healthy. twins are robust and singles can be big and have trouble getting up off the ground.
It is my belief that feed has much greater effect on birthing troubles than large goat breeds bred to small breeds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
From my experiences with animals in general, if a larger breed male breeds a smaller female then you always have a chance of birthing issues. Now after saying that, if you do not over feed the female during the pregnancy process, then the chances of birthing issues are diminished a great deal. Hereford bull breeds dexter cow and cow has no issues birthing calf. I have had this cross myself. Nature will have a huge impact and the female will normally have no issues birthing her offspring. However if the female is fed high protein feed and especially in the later term then look out. Issues are going to happen. That is my take on the subject.
thank you you have said it better than i have.
 

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A week ago we had a Nigerian Dwarf give birth to a single kid. but the ears were wrong. they were too long and drooped. We spent the next week trying to figure out what happened.
we decided that a boar buck has to be the father.
i have always said that mother nature knows not to let a baby get too big. and wont let a kid get too big.
Now i have evidence that i am right.
So the next time some one panics about a buck breading too small a doe. tell them about my nige tryst with a boar
Me and my wife just got goats about 7 months ago so I am not the least experienced but... 3 of out Nigerian does (about 40lbs) where bread to a 120lb angora buck before we got them. We had miserable births in all three and lost 2 of the 6 kids. Our very first kidding my wife had to go in up to her elbow to pull out a still born kid. And the other one never thrived and even after a week of tube feeding and regulating his heat under a lamp he passed.

I'll never let that large of a size difference happen for my does again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Me and my wife just got goats about 7 months ago so I am not the least experienced but... 3 of out Nigerian does (about 40lbs) where bread to a 120lb angora buck before we got them. We had miserable births in all three and lost 2 of the 6 kids. Our very first kidding my wife had to go in up to her elbow to pull out a still born kid. And the other one never thrived and even after a week of tube feeding and regulating his heat under a lamp he passed.

I'll never let that large of a size difference happen for my does again.
Welcome to TGS
you only lost two out of 6 kids! as a beginner you did right well.
Much better than i did. i lost 6 out of 12. I found out
Still born's are common and you can not blame it on the difference of breed size.
 

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well, all total we lost 3 outa 15. Had one of our alpines pass a still one about 2 hours after the placenta came out. We'd bumped her but she's so big we had no idea another one was hiding in there :(

It was just those first kids that were miserable because the dad was so big compared to the moms. But I guess that means we did ok for first time city folk that moved to the country :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
well, all total we lost 3 outa 15. Had one of our alpines pass a still one about 2 hours after the placenta came out. We'd bumped her but she's so big we had no idea another one was hiding in there :(

It was just those first kids that were miserable because the dad was so big compared to the moms. But I guess that means we did ok for first time city folk that moved to the country :p
I have 233 ewes that i lamb and i got to tell you that the first 5% of the does you will kid will always be the hardest kidding of the season it seems that all does and ewes that have problems kid early.
What i am saying is you will find that next year you will have just as many problems as this year. that's just how the cookie crumbles.
i think you may have culled the still born mother when it wasn't necessary. if she was old or had udder problems was difficult on the milking stand then you cull hard but for a still born birth . that is a little aggressive.
 

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Glad your doe kidded out well! I have learned the hard way though this is not always the case.
I have had 3 ND does bred to Large bucks. 1 by accident and 2 by and irresponsible breeder.

First 2 were last year. I lost one doe and her 2 kids. Very large kids coming in a completely wrong position. Ribs first, and there was no room to move one back. We finally got the kid out after some really hard pulling it was DOA. Doe was losing strength and we had to get second kid out who was coming, legs back and head down. By the time the vet arrived and started pulling the doe was exhausted. Got the kid out and the doe lived for 3 hours before passing away due to a tear in the uterus.

Her sister was due not long after her. She had an incredibly tough delivery. No doubt in my mind she probably would have ended up dead if I had not called the vet out just after she started labor. Lots of pulling, screaming, and doe going in and out of consciousness we got the kid out. Tore the does vulva but kid was out. These 2 does were NOT overweight, got daily exercise and very little grain, a lot of days no grain at all. This kid was still very large despite that.

Last doe was only in February this year. However, I will say this doe only had use of 3 legs (so not a huge amount of exercise) and was overweight. She accidently got bred to my nubian buck without me even realizing. At the end the doe went into labor. Would not dialate, huge kid. when I finally managed to get my hand in the uterus, that kid was also in a nonappropriate position. Head down and one leg. After hours of pushing and massaging, and lute, and dex, we made the decision of who to save. We ended up saving the kid and losing the doe. As of right now that doeling is the same size as a standard buckling born 4 days before her. And that buckling was a fairly large kid. Weighed 8.7lbs at birth.

So yes, while it can go perfectly fine. And they definitely shouldn't be worrying a huge amount, to the point where it is not healthy. I don't think they should dismiss it at all if they have this happen. I lost 2 out of 3 does bred to a standard buck. Nearly a 3 of 3 without vet assistance. As other have said husbandry comes into play, as well as how large of kids the buck throws, how wide the doe is, and how the kids position themselves. I hope I don't sound rude. Just trying to give my experience.
 

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I have 233 ewes that i lamb and i got to tell you that the first 5% of the does you will kid will always be the hardest kidding of the season it seems that all does and ewes that have problems kid early.
What i am saying is you will find that next year you will have just as many problems as this year. that's just how the cookie crumbles.
i think you may have culled the still born mother when it wasn't necessary. if she was old or had udder problems was difficult on the milking stand then you cull hard but for a still born birth . that is a little aggressive.
I think you misunderstood or I miss spoke. We havent culled any of the mothers. We're going to get rid of (maybe sell, maybe freezer camp) an entirely different doe that had a perfectly good buckling but that for totally different reasons. Right now I'm still wanting to grow the herd so I cant really afford to cull any of them as long ad their making good milk.
 
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