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Thank you both so, so much for your insight. Which doe would you say you like more?

Also what is a roached loin? I've heard of that, but I don't exactly know what it means.
Forgive me if I’m wrong (I’m still learning) but I THINK it’s the spot on their backs that’s right behind the chine.
 

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Thank you both so, so much for your insight. Which doe would you say you like more?

Also what is a roached loin? I've heard of that, but I don't exactly know what it means.
If I am wrong I hope someone corrects me but my understanding is that a roached loin is when the loin, the length of spine behind the chine, arches up. It looks like a weak chine in reverse if that makes sense. A weak chine can make it worse because you have a "valley" with the chine and a "hill" with the loin.
 

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I find it a little hard to explain a roached loin, but I think @Rancho Draco did a good job explaining it. There is also a section about loins here https://cornerstonefarm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Easy-Dairy-Goat-Conformation.pdf visuals are always helpful for me. 😁

Weak chines and/or steep rumps can also make their loin look roached even when it's really not. It can go the other way too, a roached loin can give the make it seem that a goat has a weak chine and/or steep rump when they really don't.
 

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You beat me to it! I was trying to link that but my phone wasn't liking that it was a PDF file and wouldn't let me. I personally learned a lot about conformation from that.
It really does have AWESOME information!! I love it!
 

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Okay, I think I understand. Thanks you two.

I still want to hear which doe you both prefer! 😁
I think I would have to go with Bella. Her rump and chine need work but she has stronger qualities than Prim. I also really don't like Prim's back legs.

That being said I love a brown goat so Prim has Bella beat there!!!😍
 

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I still want to hear which doe you both prefer! 😁
Well, I don't think it's fair for Murph to "compete" against the big girls so she's my favorite doeling!! As for body conformation, Bella would be my pick. I think she is just better put together, better rear leg angulation, stronger pasterns, more brisket extension, front legs are placed better, her legs don't toe out, etc. But as for udder conformation and a good "meaty triangle" build, Prim wins! IMHO, each of your beautiful girls have their own pros and cons. 🥰
 

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Well, I don't think it's fair for Murph to "compete" against the big girls so she's my favorite doeling!! As for body conformation, Bella would be my pick. I think she is just better put together, better rear leg angulation, stronger pasterns, more brisket extension, front legs are placed better, her legs don't toe out, etc. But as for udder conformation and a good "meaty triangle" build, Prim wins! IMHO, each of your beautiful girls have their own pros and cons. 🥰
I agree on all points here!
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
That's really good to hear.
IMHO, each of your beautiful girls have their own pros and cons. 🥰
That's really good to hear. This thread has been so supremely helpful to me. I can't believe how hard it can be to judge your own does when you see them every day. I generally consider Prim to be my better conformed doe, but I think I've been short changing Bella.

Some pros and cons you guys cant see are Prim produces generally about a half a pound of milk more than Bella throughout her lactation, Bella is much more parasite resistant than Prim, and Bella kept her weight a lot better than Prim post pregnancy and into lactation. Also Bella has an awesome personality whereas Prim is rather difficult to work with. Bella is extremely forgiving, affectionate, curious and all those easy-going characteristics she passed on to Murphy. Bella was absolutely my favorite for personality until Murph came along and stole the show.😙

Another interesting point about Phantom's offspring is that out of all his kids Murphy had by far the kookiest topline. Murphy's full brother has none of the topline faults that Murphy has. Prim's kids out of Phantom were really nice too. Prim's doeling was very wide, very meaty and had overall better conformation than Murphy. I couldn't pick her though because she unfortunately shared Prim's skittish personality and didn't have Murphy's amazing coloration. Prim's buckling honestly looked a lot like Cullen. He was narrow, really long in the body and long legged. It will be very interesting to see what Cullen's first kids look like in comparison this spring.
 

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That's really good to hear.

That's really good to hear. This thread has been so supremely helpful to me. I can't believe how hard it can be to judge your own does when you see them every day. I generally consider Prim to be my better conformed doe, but I think I've been short changing Bella.

Some pros and cons you guys cant see are Prim produces generally about a half a pound of milk more than Bella throughout her lactation, Bella is much more parasite resistant than Prim, and Bella kept her weight a lot better than Prim post pregnancy and into lactation. Also Bella has an awesome personality whereas Prim is rather difficult to work with. Bella is extremely forgiving, affectionate, curious and all those easy-going characteristics she passed on to Murphy. Bella was absolutely my favorite for personality until Murph came along and stole the show.😙

Another interesting point about Phantom's offspring is that out of all his kids Murphy had by far the kookiest topline. Murphy's full brother has none of the topline faults that Murphy has. Prim's kids out of Phantom were really nice too. Prim's doeling was very wide, very meaty and had overall better conformation than Murphy. I couldn't pick her though because she unfortunately shared Prim's skittish personality and didn't have Murphy's amazing coloration. Prim's buckling honestly looked a lot like Cullen. He was narrow, really long in the body and long legged. It will be very interesting to see what Cullen's first kids look like in comparison this spring.
The things you can't see can be so much more important sometimes! My doe Serenity is a jerk to everything but people, is a total diva, is my hardest keeper in terms of weight and mineral needs, and is skittish. She is also a fine enough mother but really doesn't like her kids. On the other hand, she is my heaviest and most reliable producer(although I'm rooting for Red to beat her out of that spot next year). Serenity's doeling takes after her personality and because of it she just cannot stay. I had to train Serenity to a milk stand and I never want to do that again. Serenity still freaks on the stand the moment she runs out of food.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Sorry no confirmation advice here….still trying to learn!

What I wanted to say was, Prim is looking really good now! She so silky looking and heavier (in a good way lol) compared to when I last saw pics of her!
Thank you so much for noticing! It sure was a long road to get her back in this condition.

The things you can't see can be so much more important sometimes! My doe Serenity is a jerk to everything but people, is a total diva, is my hardest keeper in terms of weight and mineral needs, and is skittish. She is also a fine enough mother but really doesn't like her kids. On the other hand, she is my heaviest and most reliable producer(although I'm rooting for Red to beat her out of that spot next year). Serenity's doeling takes after her personality and because of it she just cannot stay. I had to train Serenity to a milk stand and I never want to do that again. Serenity still freaks on the stand the moment she runs out of food.
I totally understand not wanting to keep a doe because of her personality. Prim really tests my patience sometimes. It's just not as pleasant working with a doe you know doesn't like you all that much. Why do the difficult ones always have to produce more? 😌 Prim will be here for the long haul though, because I really do love her milk production and udder qualities. She is very easy to milk. Extremely soft, supple skin that makes milking a dream. Luckily neither of my does really needed milk stand training, that is of course not counting the weeks and weeks that it took for Prim to get up on the stand willingly.😏
 

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Thank you so much for noticing! It sure was a long road to get her back in this condition.


I totally understand not wanting to keep a doe because of her personality. Prim really tests my patience sometimes. It's just not as pleasant working with a doe you know doesn't like you all that much. Why do the difficult ones always have to produce more? 😌 Prim will be here for the long haul though, because I really do love her milk production and udder qualities. She is very easy to milk. Extremely soft, supple skin that makes milking a dream. Luckily neither of my does really needed milk stand training, that is of course not counting the weeks and weeks that it took for Prim to get up on the stand willingly.😏
Unfortunately, Serenity has a horrible udder. She has very little attachment in any way. Her next kidding will be her 5th freshening and it will have to be her last because her udder is so bad. I don't have any pictures unfortunately but when she filled prior to kidding this spring, the ends of her teats were maybe 2 inches off the ground. She had to be milked out just so that her kids could actually nurse. Honestly, I think the best thing for her is to be butchered. She has come dangerously close to severely injuring her udder this past year because it hangs so low.
 

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Unfortunately, Serenity has a horrible udder. She has very little attachment in any way. Her next kidding will be her 5th freshening and it will have to be her last because her udder is so bad. I don't have any pictures unfortunately but when she filled prior to kidding this spring, the ends of her teats were maybe 2 inches off the ground. She had to be milked out just so that her kids could actually nurse. Honestly, I think the best thing for her is to be butchered. She has come dangerously close to severely injuring her udder this past year because it hangs so low.
I completely understand. I'm hopeful that Prim's udder holds up overtime, but it does concern me because her skin is so soft that I'm afraid it's really going to stretch out since her rear attachments aren't very good.
 
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