Featured Dehorning Info

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by LSRR, Sep 30, 2017.

  1. LSRR

    LSRR Member

    71
    Aug 28, 2017
    North Texas
    I read the sticky surgical banding dehorning method and really think it could be something I will utilize. I've been going back and forth on whether or not to allow horns in my herd and I think for everyone's safety and management, horns should be removed.

    That being said, which methods are permanent and how do I deal with scurs?

    I know disbudding is permanent when done properly.
    I feel like the banding, if done properly, is permanent as well.

    A local vet offers the gigli wire procedure, but does that prevent them form coming back entirely?

    If I were to do the surgical banding method myself, where can I get a bottle of Lidocaine?
     
  2. Suzanne_Tyler

    Suzanne_Tyler GreenTGoats

    Jul 19, 2014
    NC
    For banding, I just cut notches in the base of the scur (not deep enough to draw much blood) and then put 2 bands on.

    I just like to disbud early and get it over with. Much easier than figuring out a way to get rid of the horns later.
     
    Calfee Farms and mariarose like this.

  3. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    I agree with Suzanne. If your decision is to have non horned goats, the best thing you can do is to learn how to disbud, and learn to do it well.

    Some breeds, like Alpines, need to be done early. Don't put it off or you'll have scurs. Bucklings need to be done well and earlier than doelings, or you'll have scurs. If you have a small breed, like NDs ( I don't know what you have ) then don't fall for getting the really tiny ND tip for your burning iron. IMO, it is too small to do an adequate job, especially for bucklings. And you'll have scurs.
     
    Calfee Farms likes this.
  4. I would agree. I raise ND and use the tip that came with my iron. I wasn't burning long enough my first year, and had to do some twice. Definitely better to get it right the first time.
     
    Calfee Farms and mariarose like this.
  5. LSRR

    LSRR Member

    71
    Aug 28, 2017
    North Texas
    I have NDs and some already have horns which is why I'm asking what's permanent. Going forward I will be disbudding as well as breeding for polled goats. For the time being, I need to get rid of the horns I do already have, and the scurs too if possible.
     
    Calfee Farms likes this.
  6. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    Banding or surgery are your options for extant horns. Burning or paste (another can of worms) are options for pre-emergence.

    Perhaps we are confused as to what you mean by permanent? All methods are permanent if done well. All methods result in scurs if not done well.

    Are you saying you think there is a method that is only temporary?

    Not critical, just nonplussed, by the language use.

    Deer drop antlers and then completely regrow them. Goats don't do that. No temp solution to the horn problem. So, if you don't want horns, best option is to learn to do it early and well. The horns that exist are either permanent, or you are banding, or calling on a vet...
     
  7. LSRR

    LSRR Member

    71
    Aug 28, 2017
    North Texas
    Well cutting off the horns with a wire saw will shorten them, but some will regrow them (actual horns and not scurs). I assume it's because the base of the horn is still intact, but I consider that temporary.
     
    CrazyDogLady likes this.
  8. LSRR

    LSRR Member

    71
    Aug 28, 2017
    North Texas
    Please don't make assumptions. I have NOT sawed anything off and do NOT intend to. This is a procedure offered by the local vets under sedation. I was explaining what I consider to be a temporary option because there is horn growth after it. I've also seen banding done in a way that there is not surgical aspect and it doesn't go below the horn ridge and horns continue to grow. I consider that temporary as well. I have not done it. I will not do it. Please don't accuse me of torturing my animals when you don't have the information to back it. I run a rescue and the last thing I want is to cause any of my animals undue discomfort.

    As for the 'haven't thought it through' portion. You're correct, my thought process isn't complete. I'm choosing to evaluate the options at hand with the input of others who have more experience than myself. The right way to do it if you ask me. But clearly, you're not interested in asking me, you'd rather assume that I'm doing the wrong thing.

    If you don't have anything but assumptions to make, please leave my thread.
     
  9. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    The best way to start out is to use disbudding iron when the kids are only a week or so old depending on the breed.
    Find someone who will teach you. Males need a little more time.
    But since you are dealing with a whole different ball game you can either band them, have a vet saw them down under anesthesia which they don't do well with and the horns will grow back. It has to be done early because that horn base needs to be eliminated.
    No, sawing does not involve the horn base.
    You are running a rescue? You might be stuck with having horns or scurs after it is done. If it is scurs, they can be trimmed with hoof nippers as needed just like feet; you stop at the pink.
     
  10. LSRR

    LSRR Member

    71
    Aug 28, 2017
    North Texas
    Yes, primarily horse rescue, a few of my goats had a rough start and/or came from poor conditions as well, but many were purchased.

    I have people around me that can teach me, I have several that are disbudded and I either assisted or actually performed the procedure. I'm just looking to learn about all the different methods to remove already grown in horns. I do plan to disbud when I start having kids, my buck just arrived today and he's great.

    Thank you for the info on the scurs, didn't know how far they could be trimmed. I don't mind the scurs so much as it's just an eye sore. These guys aren't show goats by any means, but I like everyone to look tidy, not like Ed. Ed is the one pictured below and is one of the ones that came from a less than desirable situation (skinny, anemic, lice infested, copper deficient, and worm loaded). He's about 6 months old in the picture (I think) and that's about a month after I got him.
    [​IMG]

    I didn't think the sawing did, the last breeder I spoke with had issues with full horns coming back after sawing or banding with no base involvement. I was just double checking to make sure my inferred reasoning behind the failed dehorning was correct.
     
  11. K Gemmill

    K Gemmill New Member

    29
    Aug 22, 2017
    Bellingham Washington
     
  12. K Gemmill

    K Gemmill New Member

    29
    Aug 22, 2017
    Bellingham Washington
  13. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    Disbud the kids for sure.

    For the adults, I would go with the banding method. I've banded some and horns didn't grow back.
     
  14. jbrekken1

    jbrekken1 New Member

    1
    Oct 2, 2017
    LSRR you were perfectly clear on what you were asking and also in follow up posts. I think the confusion is coming from somewhere else. Sounds like banding is your best option btw.
     
  15. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    I'm very sorry for that mean and completely unfair comment. You said or did nothing to deserve that.
     
    catharina likes this.
  16. Goats Rock

    Goats Rock Member

    Jun 20, 2011
    NE Ohio
    A scur is a partial horn. Especially on bucks, Saanen bucks especially, when you disbud with the hot dis budding iron, if you don't kill all the horn growth area, you can get some malformed horns, called scurs. But, you have to be careful not to leave the disbudder on too long or you can cause brain damage and even death in the kid.
     
  17. Damfino

    Damfino Well-Known Member

    974
    Dec 29, 2013
    Right behind you
    I do not recommend banding unless the alternative is putting the goat down. While it is permanent if done right, it is also a long, painful process for the goat and tends to make them skittish and head shy. Some of them may get beat up pretty bad by the other goats since they will be unable to hit back while their horns are slowly coming away. I personally consider banding to be a fairly extreme measure reserved for goats that are actively posing a danger to people and/or other goats. Surgical horn removal is quicker but also very unpleasant for the goat and requires a lot of follow-up care to prevent sinus infection.

    Since you run a rescue operation, my suggestion would be to rehome the goats to places where horns are accommodated. Some people (myself included) keep goats with horns and are set up to deal with them. This would probably be the kindest option for the goats.
     
    catharina likes this.
  18. LSRR

    LSRR Member

    71
    Aug 28, 2017
    North Texas
    Thank you for your apology.

    The goats are here for a purpose and I do intend to keep them around. There are a lot of risks for them having horns and I have the accommodations to separate them from the others while their horns are sore. The market in this area for unregistered horned dwarf goats is little to none, the only people who are looking in to them are going to slaughter them (yes, I've asked).

    The aftercare for the surgical method as well as the recovery time are reasons I'm not looking more heavily in to that method, cost being the other. I can do the aftercare, but from what I understand, the recovery time and discomforts of the banding and surgical removal are about the same and for that, I would rather do the banding and that is going to decrease the aftercare significantly. I'm not unwilling to look at other options, but I don't want them being eaten and I do want to keep them here, but for their own safety and for the safety of the other goats, they can't have horns.
     
  19. Suzanne_Tyler

    Suzanne_Tyler GreenTGoats

    Jul 19, 2014
    NC
    I have never had a goat act in pain after banding, but I've never done full horns before, just large scurs.
     
    CrazyDogLady likes this.
  20. LSRR

    LSRR Member

    71
    Aug 28, 2017
    North Texas
    What breed were you working on?