Diagnosis Detectives!

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by SereneCaprine, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. Hello goat enthusiasts and experts alike!

    I am having a bit of a struggle with a goat (not my own) that is not feeling well.
    Here is what we are dealing with:
    Overweight mixed-breed wether. Poor diet consisting of forage, wet cob, and too many treats. Poor coat of thinning, dull, white furAlso he breaks in and eats goose food whenever he can. Body temp range of 101.6-103.3

    He was found digging holes and laying in them. Getting up and repeating the process. To me this is classic discomfort. No interest in treats but is still eating and drinking (hay and water). He also would shiver as if he was cold even thought the temperature was fine.
    Not lethargic because he was running away from me without a problem and resisting my attempts to drench him.
    I gave B-complex, CD&T, and BoSE.
    Found some stool he had recently dropped, all in a clump with a strange film around it.
    I am guessing it is mucosa (lining of gut) which pairs with the discomfort he was having.

    Next day....
    I recommended 10cc Valbazen + 20cc 40% Di Methox + 10cc Di Methox for the next 4 days
    Owners gave 10cc Valbazen but only 15cc Di Methox (whatever, no biggie... probably good enough)

    They continued with treatment but on day 3 he got very sick. He had diarrhea, lethargy, and loss of appetite. Thankfully he would drink electrolytes. Owners said they did not want to continue treatment, I urged them to and also to get a fecal test when the vet is open.

    PEOPLE REFUSED A FECAL TEST... talk about difficult

    Good news is that the goat's diarrhea went away and he is running around with his brothers and playing in the evenings. Bad news is that the film in his stool is back (I've got a photo if it helps)

    Apparently they are giving the treatment in the morning and he doesn't feel too good afterwards. Then, by the afternoon/evening he is back to his good ole' chubby self. He is, as far as i know, responding to the Di Methox treatment which means cocci or some other type of bacteria in his GI.

    I think he has cocci but I could be wrong because I've only ever treated it in kids who had diarrhea, not mucosa.
    I've seen mucosa/mucus in the stool of a cocci dam who died of ketosis suddenly.

    I just am running out of ideas here, especially without a fecal test!
    Please let me know if you've ever seen anything like this or think you know what it could be... it would help a lot : )

    (ps thanks for reading that lengthy story :) )
  2. catharina

    catharina Catharina

    Mar 16, 2016
    Northern California
    Owners sound stubborn--can you assist them in securing the goose food & thinking of healthy treats they approve of? Sounds like a frustrating situation for you!

  3. I let them know about loose minerals and baking soda (owners had a goat die of bloat before I knew them) not too sure if they took me seriously or not.
    Can you recommend any healthy treats? My goats get fruit, purina horse treats, and homemade peanut butter balls. I don't know that these goats should have any treats for the time being since weightless needs to be a priority.

    Securing goose food is a swell idea... even better those evil geese need to become someone's Christmas dinner!
  4. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Being overweight isn't healthy for him.
    They must get the calcium/phosphorus ratio correct or feed him ammonium chloride.

    The treats will have to be limited because of his weight.
    He should have a decent hay source, here is a old thread but it helps http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f193/what-do-you-feed-your-wether-108960/

    Pour coat can be from mineral deficiency to parasites.

    The goose feed is super bad for goats, that can go toxic in the gut and cause scouring in itself.

    Getting up and down he is either kidding or yes he is uncomfortable. I don't think he is kidding. ;)

    Temp is fine, but if he is not wanting treats and his tummy is uncomfortable, it may be his rumen is off. Giving probiotics and fortified vit B complex shot for a few days will help rebuild the rumen. Shivering might be from rumen issues. Or if the tamps are a bit chilly.

    If all the proper dosages were given, because we do not know the weight of the goat, it should take care of the parasites ect. Remember to have them do it 10 days later with the wormer.

    Diarrhea may be a way he is cleaning out too, if dosed right.

    How are his inner lower eyelid coloring?

    He needs the treatment to continue, until full course is given for cocci.
    Getting a fecal is wise. But you cannot force them as it is their goat and it is frustrating if they won't listen. Hopefully they continued the treatments if not it will come back. Doing a cocci preventive every 21 days might be an idea.

    Mucus in the stool can be a few things. Like tape worms.
  5. The Manna Pro minerals I gave them and told them to keep on hand have am chloride in them. Do you think this is enough or should I suggest they get the powder you mix in water?

    Side note: my wethers never get alfalfa or anything with calc. in the winter they receive rolled oat to keep their weight up. Do they still need more am chloride than they are getting in their minerals?

    The Valbazen should kill off the tapes. What do you think? I would have treated with Ivermectin+ but didn't have it on hand. Figured heavy dose of Valbazen should be enough.
    A goat at his height should only weight about 70-90 lbs but because he is overweight it is hard to say. I dosed him at 100 lbs out of fear of overdose

    Gave owner copper bolus for him, other than that he should be close to sufficient on his minerals for the time being.

    Should I go over and deworm him again? Perhaps with a better dewormer?

    For now he is making good improvements. Owner says he has some non-mucus poo (hooray!) but I'd like to prevent this from happening again should it be caused by worms.
  6. Dayna

    Dayna Well-Known Member

    Aug 16, 2012
    Pahoa Hawaii
    The valbazen has to be done for 3 days in a row I think to kill of tapes.

    I second the probios. They are fairly inexpensive and can really do a lot of good in the gut.
  7. I suggested doing probiotics after Di Methox treatment.... You know, because DM kills bacteria so putting in good bacteria (probios) would probably be killed off too. Theoretically.

    Thankfully the owner got some probiotics for him. And she says she will do a fecal test if his condition decreases... Keeping my fingers crossed here
  8. catharina

    catharina Catharina

    Mar 16, 2016
    Northern California
    That's so nice of you to help this goat! Sounds like you're putting a lot of time into this, not to mention copper & minerals.

    Do you have anything lying around your place that can be used to secure the goose food, like a storage container with a good lid or a latch for the door behind which they store it? If he's stealing it from the geese's dish, maybe cut goose head sized holes in a plastic bucket or something, that has a goat proof (?) lid but isn't hard for the owners to deal with when they fill it?

    What about celery or lettuce for treats? That shouldn't be too fattening. Mine are always happy just to get a few tree leaves or rose petals or whatever I can grab from the yard. If they like to spoil him with treats, just saying "no treats" might not work & then they'd just feed the old fattening treats they're used to.

    Good luck! You're a kind person.
  9. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    With minerals of course we never know, if the goat will eat enough for their systems. So it is best to make sure they get a recommended dose. Getting the powder may be a good idea. But of course the method used has to be precise as possible.

    I don't keep wethers, but I do feed bucks daily with Alfalfa and be sure they get grain with ammonium chloride in it. I have never had an issue with UC.

    Valbazen, 1 cc per 10 lbs, yes kills tapes, remember to follow up treatment to kills hatching eggs. 3 x 10 days apart. Ivomec plus does not kill tapes. It is hard to overdose Valbezen, so no worries. It is always better to overdose than to underdose. Valbezen if dosed properly is a good wormer. A periodic fecal should be done at least a a few times throughout the year to watch for tapes and other worms to start striking again, Tapes are not really easy to get rid of on the land for some time. So watch for that.

    Glad a copper bolus was given to him.

    Good work by the way and bless you for helping the goat. :)
  10. I'm glad for the opportunity to work with goats! Its always a great learning experience for me and I wouldn't rather be doing anything else (well, except maybe a week in Hawaii would be nice :wink:) but thank you both! I just couldn't imagine leaving that goat without trying everything I could do to make him feel better, I'm sure you'd do the same

    Well anyhoo, I haven't heard from those peeps since they told me he was doing better. I assume he's doing still fine/recovering. Sorta feels like being left on a cliffhanger...
    Better hear from them soon because I want my drenching gun back! lol

    You're right about the treats, Catharina. They live super close to this cheap cornerstone that constantly throws out produce. They could get the free discarded fruit and veggies for their goat treats. Thanks for making me think of that! Also no more wet cob for them...

    Pam, Thank you so much for your help! You are so knowledgable about this stuff its admirable! I have a few more questions about am chloride/buck diets that I think I will start a new thread on (I know, as if this forum needs more threads on am chloride) I do hope I could get more input from you!!

    Thanks to all who commented on my thread! Such lovely and helpful suggestions :)
  11. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    You are so very welcome, glad to help. ;)