Ellie- I spoke too quick

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by TCOLVIN, Sep 30, 2020.

  1. happybleats

    happybleats Well-Known Member

    Sep 12, 2010
    Gustine Texas
    Cd antitoxin is never a bad idea when the gut is concerned.

    If memory serves, this doe has done this 3 or 4 times.every 3 weeks or so. Bananine and Nuflor was used along with various herbal blends and garlic. Obviously Nuflor is not the correct antibiotic for this. Baytril dose 2 times 3 days a part doesn't sit well with me either. With each dose of antibiotic and banamine we are messing up her flora. Every 3 weeks she's sick..takes at least a week to get better leaving only a few weeks to recover that flora. Im wondering if that is not exasperating her situation. Personally I would stop all chemical treatment. Get proper herb blends to address the gut and infection and immune support. That may not be a popular response but I have seen the spiral effect of one treatment after another only cause the goat to be more compromised. I agree with Toth, its no use using the same antibiotic over and over with no results. Nuflor is a great antibiotic, but its not taking care of this situation.
     
  2. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I would give the CD antitoxin, and I would definitely contact Kristie or Kat once more to ask their opinions on the entirety of the situation. Get GI BoT and HerBiotic. Work with rigorous fresh treatments as well.

    I do agree that staying away from more antibiotics will be beneficial.
     

  3. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    I don’t think I have the CD antitoxins
     
  4. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    Now hang on a second... I just did some zooming out to human issues because I think it just might help us figure her out.

    Here's my other theory which wouldn't hurt to treat for.

    Candida. :waiting:

    Candida is a harmful yeast which lives in the gut among other places. Candida can cause severe gut distress due to imbalances, which cause it to attack the good gut bacteria. Not only does that cause low temps when the gut is in distress, but Candida also is known for causing fevers. It is known for becoming more proliferated depending on hormone levels, so it can fluctuate based on a goat's heat cycles. Antibiotics tend to make it even more angry.

    https://scholar.cu.edu.eg/?q=hanem/files/monograph_of_sheep_and_goats.pdf

    "The genus Candida comprises more than 260 species, of which Candida albicans is the most commonly recorded species in sheep and goats  Candidosis is a fungal disease affecting the mucous membranes and the skin and may cause infection of any organ or system or systemic infections.  Candidosis is distributed worldwide in a variety of animals and is most commonly caused by Candida albicans.  Candida albicans is a polymorphic fungus which grows in both yeast and filamentous forms (Brown et al., 2012).  Candida albicans is also an opportunistic pathogen and one of the major aetiological agents of mucosal and systemic fungal infection (Brown et al., 2012)."

    I know it may seem odd but I'm trying to link the hormone-related reoccurrence here.

    If we want to treat for candida, no harm in that!

    Aloe vera juice (never the plant) works very well. Also said to be a natural wormer, go figure!

    Apple Cider Vinegar should be given too.

    Herbs good for it include cinnamon, ginger, pau d'arco, black walnut, thyme, and peppermint. You are already giving some of these.

    Wheatgrass would be beneficial as well.

    HerBiotic will help with fungal/yeast issues, and it will cover your herbal needs.

    Garlic garlic garlic.

    Dr. Christopher's Intestinal Sweep would also be fantastic: https://healthyplanetshopping.com/p...v-j5HAAspmQclO_sUlumE6qKDUkDh8zhoCdqsQAvD_BwE

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3883203/ - "
    Candidiasis: An unusual cause of persistent high-grade fever in mid-pregnancy"
     
  5. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.

    Temp this evening was 105.3, gave herbals (2) and 1 shot of banamine. She was hungry this evening and ate 3 Garlic Cloves with a dab of peanut butter. Never has she ever done that. She doesn’t act like she is sick. The article above is very interesting and may just be what she has. I have ordered tonight the herbotics and ask that it be shipped tomorrow. My vet gave me the antibiotic Baytril (2) shots 3ml each. My plan was to give one in the morning and then the next 2 days Nuflor and day 3 Baytril for the last shot. Where do you get aloe Vera juice. We have a Aloe Vera plant on back porch. Could I press the juice out? I have a walnut tree also. What if I blend the leaves (chop) and feed in yogurt or what ever she will eat. Do you think I should give her a shot of Selium tomorrow when I do the other goats. Maybe I just need to wait on her? Let me know what you think on the Baytril, Nuflor, Aloe Vera, chop leaves and anything else I may have mentioned. I may try to get another fecal in the morning and take to my vet and enough for me to do one so I can compare. I know so many questions but I want you all to know that I appreciate the interest and the help you have give Ellie and Me. I feel like we may have a chance here to do something for her. Thanks
     
    MadHouse likes this.
  6. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    NO on the Baytril, if you read what I sent on Candida it just makes the situation worse (and about everything else to). She is acting ok so I don't think we should give it, but hold on to it.

    Unfortunately aloe vera plant has a purgative effect... the juice sold has had those properties removed. Most stores sell it, honestly.

    Green leaves are good, I am sure she will take them herself.
     
  7. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    On another note I did a fecal tonight on her myself and if I’m figuring right she has an average count of 1300. This is a third of what last fecal was, over 4000. I know I’m new at this but I saw barberpole in both fecals I did. One was about 12 days ago and this one tonight. I use the McMaster Green line slide to do my fecals.
    Example of what I saw:
    4 + 4 +4 + 6 + 3 = 21
    7 + 6 + 6 + 5 + 4 = 28
    21 x 50 = 1050
    28 x 50 = 1400

    1400 + 1050 = 2450

    2450 divided by 2 = 1225 count average

    I rounded up to 1300 just to be safe.

    Where am I wrong in method here?
    Is it 2450 the worm count or average of the two, 1225.
     
  8. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    Ok on the holding off on Baytril, what about the Nuflor? I still like 2 shots giving her
     
  9. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    10/16/20-morning temp 104.3, did not give Nuflor yet. Gave EO oils, herbals, she would not eat garlic or her alfalfa feed mix. I am going to get some leaves chopped up for feeding. Walnut, mulberry, oak, gum and black berry if I have any. I’ll chop them up and mix in feed?
     
  10. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    Continue Nuflor because I really don't want to stop mid treatment.

    Is she getting ACV yet? Give 3 hours post antibiotic shot.

    She may eat the leaves by themselves. I'd like to see if she would.
     
  11. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    I give ACV this evening. It will be about 6pm before I can give the Nuflor. I have left home to get somethings from the store. I got walnut, oak , loquat, mulberry, blackberry, pecan, lemon, and orange leaves in a plastic bag about a third full and run them though an onion slicer and mixed them up real good and put in feeding trough over some left over alfalfa pellets the other goats left this morning. Her and her buddies came to trough and ate all of it up. I don’t know how much she ate but she kept her head in the trough so I know she got some.
     
    happybleats likes this.
  12. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    If you’re out at the store do check for drinkable aloe juice!
     
  13. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    Found it. What do I do with it now. How much how often. Home in an hour IMG_3763.jpg
     
    happybleats likes this.
  14. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I'd do it for a week. You can start small with 5cc once a day to make sure she does well with it.
     
  15. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    Gave her and one of her buddies 5 cc Aloe J. Also herbals. Temp was 104.3, I gave Nuflor and a 2ml banamine. She wouldn’t eat alfalfa but she did eat some oak leaves. In the morning I’ll give EO’s and herbals and Aloe J. I guess next Nuflor will be tomorrow evening. You mention ACV, when does she get that. How much.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  16. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I’d mix 5cc acv with 5cc water give twice daily.
     
  17. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    Ok here is what’s on schedule,
    10ml ACV / Water mix morning and evening
    Herbal wormer 1 teaspoon in drench morn/ eve
    GI Smoother 1 teaspoon in drench morn/eve
    Essential oils in olive oil carrier (wild O, Oregano, lemon grass, 3 days on 4 off.
    and digestion every day.
    Yogurt and slippery elm mixed in alfalfa, morn/ eve.
    Nuflor now given in evenings, banamine if fever 104.3 and up.
    Oak, lemon, orange, black walnut, mulberry, blackberry and loquat leaves chopped up once in a while over alfalfa mix.
    Garlic when I can get it down her.
    I don’t think I left out anything.
    Oh yes I did. 5 cc Aloe juice morn / evening
    Herbotics when I receive it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  18. Sfgwife

    Sfgwife Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2018
    North Cakalaki

    Ok @TCOLVIN has a decent goat vet. You are NOT vet but trying to deter them from giving something the vet has said to do..... this does not sit well with me. I GET this animal has had problems. But the vet did go to school for these types of things. Yes they are stumped. But go by what the vet is saying as well. Just because it is not in your herbal protocol to use a stronger different antibiotic does not mean it is not right!

    And @TCOLVIN the goat was most likely hungry because the banamine was keeping the fever at bay and it will also make them hungry. A goat that feels sick just like a human does not want to eat. She NEEDS those nutrients. Esp with all the things you are throwin at her right now. You absolutely cannot have the goat stopping feed and water. When was the vet out to see this animal? You could be missing something while listening to lungs or heart or any bodily function that the vet may catch. If YOU and your VET feel the need to treat for the yeast then by all means do so. But go over the thought process with them.
     
  19. Moers kiko boars

    Moers kiko boars Well-Known Member

    Apr 22, 2018
    Oklahoma
    I agree..please consult your vet. We are here to help and SUGGEST what works for our goats. We do support.all your efforts. But none of us are veterinarians.
     
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