Ellie- I spoke too quick

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by TCOLVIN, Sep 30, 2020.

  1. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
  2. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    I understand where you are coming from but let me set the record straight here. My vet has not seen this goat and does not make house calls at all. I ask him if he had a antibiotic stronger than Nuflor. He replied with baytril saying it not that much stronger but is a different type of antibiotic. He said I could try it and I ask how often to give it his reply was now and 3 days later. All that is said or told for me to do/try on this forum is certainly scrutinized by me throughly before I do or try the info I get. I realize that you are not vets but I also realize that none of you would give out any info that you yourselves have not tried or have seen it work. I also know what works for one goat may not work on another and conditions and circumstances may or may not present itself as a cure. I close with thanking each one that has been responding to Ellie’s problem and rest assured that the more info collected can create a knowledge base that can benefit her and the rest of my herd. I have 3 goats in my herd now that were near death and through piles of comments and replies, a workable life giving solution was found and they are now leading mamas at kidding time. You all may not be vets, but you probably have more hands on experience with goats than most vets I know. Thanks guys for the sincere dedication that you all put forth for people like me.
     

  3. Sfgwife

    Sfgwife Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2018
    North Cakalaki
    Is it not feasable to take the goat in to the vet or the state vet where you live? Maybe it IS time to make the trip to the vet with her.... even if it does take a bit of time to get there and back. The vet seeing and doing an exam in person might catch something off that you do not recognize as a problem causing all of this. Or hear something in their steth that you do not know to listen for or hear yourself. Or test for with blood, urine or feces. But it could be something that only a physical exam will catch.

    On the baytril... you do not like the dosing he has given you. Cite different trusted web sites about the dosage and talk to the vet about the dosage that you do not agree with. I have questioned mine and he takes my research and looks at it himself. He is not against trying things differently if i give him reliable references and resources where something is different than what he suggests. Sometimes my way works better and sometimes his does.
     
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  4. Sfgwife

    Sfgwife Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2018
    North Cakalaki
    Also. You said this is happening every three weeks approx. does it foinside with her heat cycles. Is there possibly somethin goin on with her reproductive system.
     
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  5. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    You saying that brings to mind that just this week I had a little 11 month old buck in the pen with her about a week because of another problem and I notice him trying to act buckish so I took him out because of this.
     
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  6. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    10/17/20- temp 100.9, won’t eat feed this morning, cur her a limb and put back to pasture with other goats. I don’t think what she has is catching. I gave her all the fluids, Aloe, digestzen, ACV, and the herbal mixes. I could not get her to eat garlic last night so I didn’t try this morning. I may chop some tonight. If she don’t do better by next week in I may try and get a vet appointment. With this Covid scare you can’t go into the vets office building and when comes out to your vehicle you have to sit in your truck. I believe now it is a heat cycle thing.
     
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  7. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I would just like to reply to @Sfgwife that I do not hold myself up as better than a vet, and all of my opinions are my opinions.

    But I can't help but be vet sour because I see them cause so many more issues with their overuse and improper use of antibiotics. I was taking the situation at hand seeing a goat with past rumen distress, who has received multiple antibiotics in the past, was already on a good antibiotic, and had been eating and acting normally.

    I specifically said to hold on to it in case any of those situations changed.

    I am glad you have a good vet @Sfgwife that will listen to you when they are called out, but not all vets are as good.

    We are all taking this situation in stride and watching Ellie closely her situation is extremely interesting.

    But with her temp now going low, I'd be hard pressed to give any more antibiotics (and we are probably already at the limit for days of banamine), and I would try and work with her body.

    @TCOLVIN if you can, pump her full of at least 4 cloves of garlic daily. Blend it up with the 10cc of ACV and water.

    I am not anti-antibiotics and I am anti-vets, but I DO NOT put my trust blindly in either.

    Tom is doing a fantastic job, I trust he knows his goat, and if he feels a vet is necessary I don't doubt he will overlook all of my advice and do what he feels is best. ;)
     
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  8. Sfgwife

    Sfgwife Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2018
    North Cakalaki

    But you are specifically telling him to disregard what his VET has told him to do. That IS the problem here. You do not like them and make your stance well known in that aspect. You are not a vet and should absolutely not be telling ANYONE to not listen theirs!
     
  9. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I am telling Tom my opinion and I assume he will make his own decisions as he is an adult.

    Tom - make your own decisions, my feelings towards using baytril are purely my own opinion I am not a vet, nor do I hold myself to be one. You asked for our THOUGHTS on this forum, not the opinions of a licensed medical professional. I assume you know this, @TCOLVIN - I am not a vet!

    Listen to your vet, or don’t listen to your vet, whatever you do make sure it comes from you!

    That’s all I have to say. :)

    Let’s try and keep this friendly please. I stated my OPINION! Which was what has been asked for by the OP.
     
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  10. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    OK guys, keep it friendly, keep it fun. :hide:

    Sometimes do know, vets are not always right in advice or treatment. We have proof from our own goat spot family about this.

    If we feel a vets advice is wrong here on a TGS post, we say something right away.

    Remember, we can only give advice and the OP can decide whether or not to take that advice or not.
    We are not vets, you are correct there. But many of us have learned from trial and error. So we know more than most vets out there.

    The drug Baytril is another antibiotic type, which is different and may finally kill off what is ailing the goat.
    But has to be given the proper amount of days for it to work.

    We all give our advice, all we can do is let the OP soak it all in and decide from there, what they want to do.

    We cannot force it upon them, even if we feel and know advice is good.
     
  11. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    I understand each one of your comments as well as NDG. I think he/she was giving me ( as I do sometimes) what he/ she feels is proper instructions to help me help and Ellie. I know you are not vets but everyone on here knows (I hope) that all vets are not created equal. Many are too dog and cat specific and may have studied goats and such in school but due to the lack of goats : sheep in their business, really are not in touch with any thing but dog and cat. My vet has cattle and some knowledge of goats but that’s another story. When I want hands on experience, I go to the goat spot for suggestions and help. Let’s all help one another and reserve the right to disagree if the shoe don’t fit. I thank NDG for the input as well as many others whom I have follow on this forum.. You are a wonderful bunch. Case closed
     
  12. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    Temp this evening 104 f, she wonuld not eat anything but green oak leaves. I gave a banamine and an antibiotic shot. Herbal wormer and GI smoother, Digestzen, ACV, Aloe J, and cut up leaves mixed in the alfalfa with yogurt. She would not even look at it. In the morning I’m giving her a B complex shot. Her temp swinging like it does is a puzzle.
     
  13. Moers kiko boars

    Moers kiko boars Well-Known Member

    Apr 22, 2018
    Oklahoma
    Best of luck to you. I do hope she turns around soon.
     
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  14. Sfgwife

    Sfgwife Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2018
    North Cakalaki
    Are you taking the temps at the same times each day or different times? In the mornings... if it was a cool night and she has not been up moving around that could be the cause of the low temps. Then the evening ones.... had she been out flitting around or lazing around or was it warm outside. Outside things can also affect temps drastically. Even if she just ran across a wide expanse to get to you it can raise that temp up a bit. Temps can vary SO much by what the animal is doing ten to thirty minutes before you take it.

    Ask your vet if it is ok to keep giving the banamine. Iirc she has had it for quite a few days in a row now. It is only meant for a few days at a time. After that is can start to cause problems even though it is a wonderful med.

    Have you tried giving different things at different time instead of all at once on her? It could be something is upsetting her tum making her not want to eat.

    What about trying store bought probios on her. The yogurt may not have as much concentrated good for her stuff in it as a tube kind. That way you can shoot it in her mouth and she really has no choice in taking them or not. You can drench the slurry as well if it is mushy enough.
     
  15. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I agree, yogurt is better for short term use and probiotics that are goat specific will always be better.

    The not eating will result in a lower temp, I see no reason why you shouldn’t make an alfalfa pellet slurry and drench it.

    I think banamine needs to be stopped at this point.

    How many days of Nuflor are you at?
     
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  16. AndersonRanch

    AndersonRanch Well-Known Member

    315
    Oct 17, 2020
    California
    Wow! Your poor girl sure has been threw a lot.
    A few things that I have not seen.....oh! I should probably mention I am Jessica84 but it’s not letting me long in (guess I ticked someone off lol)
    But 1. Have you actually listened to her rumen to see if it’s off. I think Sfwife is onto something about heats. It’s awful odd that it’s almost like clockwork correct? Kinda like a heat comes like clock work? She is off feed just for roughly 24 hours right? Or am I not understanding your first post correctly?
    2. IF her rumen is truly off have you tried a cud transfer? That does some seriously amazing things.
    Reading all the replies, honestly her system has been threw a lot. A lot of worming, antibiotics, and a lot of different natural remedies which I do have to a degree is less harsh on the system then chemicals BUT we are still talking about a lot of changes for this poor girl. And to be honest not really a lot of time to see if it’s working before moving onto something new. You very possible might have started out with something that as simple as a heat and now her rumen is off. But before going to the drawing board again listen to that rumen! When my does come into heat a lot of them are not eating during it. They are just as bad as bucks and only care about getting knocked up. Some of them they just scream and go on with life like normal but it is not uncommon to be off feed especially if there is a handsome dude around to catch their eye and make them forget about food.
     
  17. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    Day 5 on Nuflor, temp this morning 102.4f. I gave her all the herbals and digestzen. She would not eat the alfalfa yogurt mix this morning but is eating hay. I know I shouldn’t have but I mixed a tad of oats in her trough with the alfalfa and she went to eating with her buddies. I am not sure this is a total stomach thing now. I think it is heat cycle related. I am stopping the banamine and the Nuflor now for a while. She did eat a few green oak leaves. The ACV she absolutely don’t like. I didn’t give it this morning. Maybe once a day? I did see her eat some grass in the pen. I gave her a B Coplex shot this morning also. I waited a good while to get a fecal but she didn’t do anything. And I was running late. I spent a good 50 minutes with her. No pellets, when I didn’t need pellets she was bombing the pen, lol i temp check her again this evening. It’s 52 degrees here this morning. I gave all the rest of my goats the nasal pneumonia vaccines Friday but not her yet, Maybe when her temps are good for 3-4 days straight I’ll do her. Every one gets selium dose Ext weekend but her also.
     
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  18. TCOLVIN

    TCOLVIN TKC Farms

    Sep 21, 2014
    Cobbtown, Ga.
    Oh yeah, THANKS
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  19. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    ACV is fine once a day.

    I’d wait a long time, if ever, to give the pneumonia vaccine to such a compromised goat.

    It sounds like her digestion is a lot better. I would pause DigestZen daily but continue with oils 3 days on 4 days off. Once she reaches 10 days of the herbal wormer, I’d move to 3 days on 4 days off.

    Lots of green leaves, oak, pine. I’d love to get more fresh browse into her.

    Chaffhaye may be a good little addition to her diet (due to fermentation) and it may entice her more!!

    I’d love for you to consider some red raspberry leaf in her diet regularly, I love this for horses when they go through rough heats. It really helps!! You can use the dry herb.
     
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  20. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    If we stop Nuflor, continue garlic daily as a natural antibiotic to be safe. By this I mean, get it in her no matter what.