FF nursing issues - new question post #9

Discussion in 'Kidding Koral' started by HoosierShadow, Feb 26, 2011.

  1. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Okay... so as I have mentioned we have a buckling that was weak when he was born He's doing really well now, but I don't think mama is nursing him all that well. He chases her around wanting to nurse, and after a while I will make her stand. She isn't engorged so I'm sure she's nursing them - doeling seems content. But the buckling just wants to nurse...nurse...nurse.

    Hubby reminded me he had 4 cans of goats milk he brought home from the farm he used to work for - they fed it to foals.
    Since he doesn't seem to be getting as satisfied, hubby told me to syringe feed him some of that milk - just warm it up.

    Would this be a good idea? I'm not the worlds greatest milker, but I have expressed milk from her, I just don't want to make her sore or anything.So I wonder if it would be okay to give him some of this milk? Like I said the doeling seems content.

    any suggestions would be great. BTW, I make sure he nurses for a while every time I go out, and I go out in the middle of the night to make sure and observe.

    Thanks!
     
  2. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Canned goats milk? and nursing question

    Bucklings are always wanting to eat, regardless of wether they need it or not.
    I know you're worried about wether he's getting enough but if he's growing and energetic and has a nice round belly, he's getting plenty, mama may not always "stand on demand" but if you do supplement him, he may not want to take as much from mama which would lower her production.
     

  3. GotmygoatMTJ

    GotmygoatMTJ New Member

    Re: Canned goats milk? and nursing question

    If the can reads for baby animals, then I don't see why not. But if its for humans, its got preservatives in it. Seeing that your hubby got it from the horse farm, and assuming the foals did well, I don't see why not xD
     
  4. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Re: Canned goats milk? and nursing question

    Thanks so much! I watch her and her twins constantly, but for the past two days I haven't seen her nurse them. I'm sure she does and I just don't see, otherwise I'd think they would both be weak and would be crying. He follows her constantly, not just off and on, I mean...CONSTANTLY. She runs in circles. She's young and a ff, and still figuring things out, but she doesn't seem concerned about them at all.
    We had them outside today for a little while and she could have cared less.... the doeling would follow her around once in a while, but otherwise she was off doing her thing. But my other does who were ff their last kidding - were concerned and always checking on their kids - even in their ff. I love this brat, and don't want her to be a bad mama, so I hope she gets this figured out.

    The cans of goat milk we have are the brand Meyenberg evaporated Goat Milk Vitamin D ingredients include: goat milk, disodium phosphate, vitamin D3, and folic acid.
    It says to mix with equal parts water.

    Think this would be okay to give to kids if we ever need too?
     
  5. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Re: Canned goats milk? and nursing question

    I went out and checked at 2am, one side of her udder was still kind of full, and the kids were wanting to nurse - she was running laps around the stall, so I made her stand and nurse them. Little man just wasn't satisfied at all. He was bigger than his twin at birth, but now she has filled out more than he has. He feels more ribby than firm like her. I expressed 10ccs from mama and fed it to him with a syringe. He was gulping it down and looking for more. I let him suck on my finger to check his sucking reflex and it seems strong - he was weak at birth and wouldn't suckle - now that's all he wants to do.

    So now...I am wondering if I should definitely be putting him on the teat and then supplementing him through the day? I don't want to upset the mama, she does seem to be nursing the other kid just fine even if she isn't attentive.

    He wants to nurse ALL the time, he doesn't do much wondering around, all he wants to do is chase her. I just don't know... I don't want to seem like I am overworrying, but something tells me he's not getting enough...
     
  6. Robynlynn

    Robynlynn New Member

    209
    Jan 18, 2011
    NW Iowa
    Re: Canned goats milk? and nursing question

    You might want to try putting her in a stanchion for a while.....and just leaving her in there. the kids can nurse then and she will figure out that that is what she is supposed to do. FF can be dumb! make sure she has plenty of hay and a bucket of water that the kids can't get into.......I wouldn't hesitate to do this. it seems mean but after a day or so take her out and see if it's better. If not put her back in until she will take them. As long as she has food and water while in the stanchion she will be fine....she needs to learn her job :GAAH:
    Good Luck!!!
     
  7. newmama30+

    newmama30+ New Member

    610
    Oct 4, 2010
    Wabasso MN
    Re: Canned goats milk? and nursing question

    Im sorry that Trouble's having issues with being a momma. Our #13 who let angel steal her doeling, then Angel didn't have milk, so I put Prince Charming on 13, although sometimes I wonder how much he actually gets to nurse, she does the same thing runs from him but he is a month old now and doing fine, so even though I force her to nurse twice a day, he must also be nursing on his own....I have to say that the bucklings seem to want to nurse more than the doelings.
     
  8. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Re: Canned goats milk? and nursing question

    Thanks so much! Well I think things might finally be okay! A friend who raises boers came over to see the kids, and I told her about the issue, because it became apparent this morning it's definitely an issue.
    She helped us, and I am so thankful she came over! Apparently even though I am feeding Trouble around the clock 'something' either grain, or alfalfa pellets/ hay/alfalfa hay she still just isn't getting enough. So... we filled up an ice cream bucket with grain/BOSS and let her eat as much food as she wanted. A few minutes later she let the kids nurse without hesitation.
    I feel bad though, because I knew something was up, I just didn't know what? I do give the girls lots of grain through the day, but we'll increase everyone. I want to make sure they are all happy and healthy and I want the kids thriving.

    BTW, Trouble's kids were bouncing around the stall -- too cute seeing the lil man so playful with his twin :)
     
  9. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Re: Canned goats milk? and nursing question

    Well now I am a little sure :( Earlier today she seemed to do okay, but this evening she just wants to run from them. My other does have always allowed their kids to nurse whenever they want. She let the doe nurse again this evening during feeding time but by the time the buckling latched on, she was ready to walk away. After watching them run laps in the stall I made her stand and she nursed them. His belly was fuller, but not near as full as the doeling.

    She has free choice alfalfa hay, mixed hay, all the grain she wants, and plenty of water. I just don't know what else to do for her. This evening I put her on the leash so she can still move around but can't run laps in the stall to get away from them. I just put her on it a few minutes ago and she finally stopped moving and let them nurse.

    Think this is a bad idea? I figured if she couldn't run too far away from them, then she might let them nurse more.
    It's supposed to be 50 tomorrow - and sunny so I'd like to get them outside after two days of being cooped up. Thinking of buying a dog chain and chaining her up so she can't run away and ignore them. They'd be in the backyard - not where the others can bother them.

    Tomorrow I'll get some video to show you all what she is doing. I don't have a stanchion or anything I could keep her on to let them nurse, so the only thing I could come up with was this leashing idea.
     
  10. GotmygoatMTJ

    GotmygoatMTJ New Member

    I worry about leashes on a goat in a stall with other goats, even babies. Because you never know if they can get twisted up in it, lose a leg, or even their life. :( When we first started in the goats (9 years ago) we made the mistake of tying a young buck in a stall with a couple of does. They were all sick, but we thought tying him was a good idea, to keep them from getting pregnant. The next morning one of the does had been strangled to death. I was sooo devestated. So, IMO, I'd keep the leash off.

    Is it possible that you can hold her for him to nurse through out the day? We've had to do that, a lot like bottle feeding.

    I don't know if you've ever gotten the Sydell magazines, but they have these 'grafting' pens, where the mom can lay down, eat and drink, but her head is caught in bars so the kids can nurse. I like the idea, though it may seem cruel, it works. If you can make something like that, it would help too.

    Sorry you're having so much problems :(
     
  11. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Sorry you are having problems with Trouble. :( With the cold weather you've been having, is it possible her teats are chapped and the nursing hurts her? Just brainstorming.
    The only goat formula we used before was "Save a Kid" from tractor supply and it worked pretty good. Our buckling got mild runs from it when dh mixed it too concentrated, but I just diluted it more the next day and it straightened out.
    I hope she figure it all out soon so you don't have to raise two bottle babies (or maybe just the buckling). :hug:
    I've already planned my abandoned kid or unable-to-feed-the-triplet scenario. I will take said kid into a birthing stall when another doe goes into labor and then rub the fluids on it so she thinks it's hers! :laugh: I have no idea if it will work or not but sounds amusing anyway. See what happens when I have too much time on my hands?
     
  12. Coyote Night Acres

    Coyote Night Acres New Member

    498
    Dec 26, 2010
    Missouri
    We grafted a bottle buckling we bought on to one of the milking doe's we bought last year. They came from two different farms (two different states too) We milked the doe daily and we would feed the milk to the baby in a bottle, once he was big enough like 2 weeks old we started letting him get up on the milking stand and nurse off one side of the doe. We did that twice a day when we milked and would feed him his third feeding from a bottle mid day. She got real used to him jumping up to nurse and stopped making those I hate you noises and trying to bite his butt, so we let him go out to the pasture with her. We started noticing that she looked uneven at milking time and suspected he was nursing throughout the day on his own, sure enough we sat and watch he was nursing and she was letting him. She actually wouldn't let the other doe's push him around like he was hers. Thought I'de share.
     
  13. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    No worries on the leash, as she is alone with the kids, and I made sure it didn't hang low enough to get caught on her or the kids, but it gave her plenty of room to move around.
    I like the sounds of the grafting pen, I don't read the magazine, but I'll do an internet search unless you know of a website?

    The leash seemed to help when I went out the buckling started to follow her, and I stopped her and had her let him nurse. I rubbed her, talked to her and told her how good a girl she was. I didn't have to hold her, just rubbed and talked to her. When she walked away I went out of the stall and observed.
    Both wanted to nurse, and she was walking circles with the leash on, and finally stopped and let them nurse - I made sure the buckling got the other side.
    A few minutes later, she stopped and let them nurse again, and that's when I took the leash off to give her a break since their bellies were full - his felt so much fuller than I've noticed before.

    Now I am wondering....she is in a stall alone with her twins it's quite big for just her and the twins around 8ft long and about 6ft wide. Tomorrow I think I am going to get pallets and block off part of the stall. She'll still have plenty of room and the kids will be able to run and play, it would be around 4'x6'.

    Aimee - It's been much warmer here lately, otherwise I'd think that could be a possability. Most nights are above freezing, and the days range from 40s-60s. FINALLY getting away from the deep freeze we were in a few weeks ago!
    There are signs of spring life everywhere! :wink:

    I go out and check on them through the night, and all through the day. I tell ya I feel like I have my own newborn again, except I have to go out to the barn and have it nurse on someone else :laugh:
     
  14. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    What a circus you have there HoosierShadow! One thing to make sure is to weigh the kids once a week to keep track of their gains.
    Right now I have a set of trips (Boers) who arent gaining as much as I like to see; which is nearly a lb a day for the breed.
    At 3 weeks Im still holding mama for one of the doelings & have started supplementing her as well. One side of her udder is pretty big though not hot or conjested.
     
  15. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Just thought I'd update before I lay down for some zzzz's. She is nursing them, WHEW. BUT.... he is what I am calling a 'dumb nurser.' Because sometimes he is just off goofing off when she signals for them to nurse, and other times he might go up behind her instead of at the front of the udder. He knows where the food is, so I don't know why he goes behind her....lil stinker! When I see this, I take him around and put him on her and make sure she lets him get some before she walks away. You can tell she wants them to both nurse at the same time, but I don't think she knows how to get them there at the same time, and lets the doeling nurse anyway, so then he misses out.
    I'm still checking on them around the clock.
    He's not as tall or filled out as his twin, but I think as long as we stay on top of him, as he matures and figures all this out he's going to be fine.
    BTW, I think the doeling might always have been a tiny bit taller than him, but he was longer bodied than her. They are both up bouncing around, and alert...I just wish he was more alert at feeding time!
     
  16. lissablack

    lissablack New Member

    Nov 30, 2009
    Fresca gave up on her four boys a couple days ago and wouldn't let them nurse. We put her on the milking stand and forced her, that was quite a fight, but she got better after the first couple times. Then it looked like she was feeding them some of the time. I watched her and at once point all four of them were trying to eat at once, and they were pretty hard on her, until she walked away from them. I think with her she is willing but hasn't got enough milk to feed them all. So they were all hungry all the time and getting more pushy with her. I have started supplementing them with a bottle and everything is better. They aren't as hungry and she is more able to handle them with some help. Looks like possibly one of them has been getting less than the other three. I'll find out, just started this yesterday.

    I started freezing milk before I dried up my last two, but there isn't going to be enough for this, so I am going to mix it with cow's milk. My next one may have a bunch of kids too. She has more milk, but if she has all bucks I will be helping her too I expect.

    The canned milk sounds like the human one, maybe there is only one version of that.
     
  17. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Wow I could imagine it being quite stressing if 4 kids are being aggressive eaters and the stress on her milk supply. I hope the supplementing works, please let me know as I do have some frozen milk from my doe last July in the deep freezer that should still be good. I am worried it might affect her allowing him to nurse if she smells another milk scent on him?

    I have them outside today, it's just too pretty to keep everyone locked up. I've been watching her, and she does follow her kids around. She is very docile though, just doesn't really act right, doesn't want to graze, etc. I don't know what is up with her? Temp is fine, she's got plenty of food to choose from....I don't think she's full though - she's pretty sunken in - drinking lots of water.
    She's been wormed. I don't think she's been eating loose mineral? I wonder if it would hurt to give her a little bit of selenium e gel? We don't give it to our does only the kids, but with one of her kids being born with the deficiency, I think it might help. I know there is selenium in the grain, but need to find out how much....

    Otherwise I just don't know. I think I will end up having to supplement.....
     
  18. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Congrats... :clap: :cool: :hi5:
     
  19. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Thanks Pam! She seems to have had an okay day! I'll continue to check on them like I have just to make sure. She doesn't talk to them <she did the first 2 days>, she does go and look for them though, so she does show some concern.
     
  20. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    your welcome...she seems to be doing good and sounds like a momma.... even if... she isn't talking to them.....or that you know of... :wink: