Help Needed with Newbie and Urinary Calculi

Discussion in 'Beginners Goat Raising' started by bobb, Sep 20, 2010.

  1. bobb

    bobb New Member

    5
    Sep 20, 2010
    Hello Everyone,

    Newbie here who took two goats (Boer and Pygmy) from his friend back in May to save them from the meat grinder. My Boer is 180 lbs and is about 3-4 years old. Last week I noticed he was grinding his teeth and not urinating. Researching online I discovered the Urinary Calculi thing and immediately called the vet. I had previously heard people talking about castrated males being susceptible to this sort of thing, but was under the impression that if I kept him off grains he'd be ok. My ignorance has caused him much pain. Long story short the vet operated on him this Friday....not sure of the technical term for the operation, but he now pees from slightly below his butt. Being in full panic mode I've been trying to learn all about how to treat him with ammonium chloride and am pretty darn confused.

    A friend who has goats gave me some AC powder and I ordered more online today. But I haven't found much info on dosing and long term treatment. The dosing recommended by my friend is 1 tablespoon per 20 cc water. I need to doublecheck that tomorrow because that seems high. Anyway, I mixed up some and gave it to my goat with something called a "drencher" syringe. Poor guy reacted like I gave him poison....so I tasted it. Oh my god......AC is the most bitter, acrid, disgusting stuff I've ever tasted.....even worse than motor oil. Here's what I'm confused about:

    1. How often do I give him the AC/water mixture....once a day or twice a day?
    2. What is the correct dosage to dissolve existing calculi crystals in his bladder?
    3. Besides dosage, what's the total volume of AC/water mix I should give him daily?
    4. There has to be a better way to make him eat AC besides me squirting it down his throat.....what's the way?
    5. I assume if he does recover he'll need to be on the AC forever....what's the best way to get him to eat it long term?

    Any info you guys can provide would be deeply appreciated. It kills me to know I could have prevented all his pain and suffering had I been a bit smarter and more pro-active about this condition. Now he's paying the price because I'm an idiot.

    Thanks in advance,
    bob
     
  2. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    well did the vet drain his bladder too when he did the surgery?

    He needs to tablespoons of the AC a day for treatment. Dissolve it in whatever you like - you can flavor it too if you so desire.

    Bucks and weathers should always have AC in their feed or put it in their loose minerals.

    Bucks and wethers both can get UC -- my buck got it but we didnt do that surgery we just cut the pizzel off the end - (the sprayer part ) now he cant aim well but he is alive and he can still breed.
     

  3. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    Welcome Bob to the goat spot. SO glad you are here, but sorry things have started like they have for you.

    Now as for the surgery, I have never heard of that before, adn I just pray it works for you, sounds like you have a great goat vet, Congratulations on fiunding one, they are few and far between.

    Bob here is a link on a wonderful site dealing with AC.

    http://www.buzzle.com/articles/ammonium ... goats.html

    Good luck on this .
     
  4. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.

    Stacey, I have never ever had a UC problem here, so not all Bucks and wethers need AC. I do have it on hand if I need it, but my boys do not get grain either unless it is a treat.
     
  5. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    that surgery is a pretty common one - at least in my area


    as to all bucks not needing AC - its true not every buck is prone to UC (I have said this many times that UC is like cholesterol, sometimes its diet related other times its genetic) but since a good number of cases can easily be prevented with having AC in their loose minerals or grain I just suggest it to anyone who owns goats of the male gender for that very fact. Prevention is so much easier then treatment.
     
  6. milkmaid

    milkmaid I'm not addicted - I'm in love!

    You might look into apple cider vinegar. I put a little into the goats' water every morning and have never had a problem with UC in my buck or my wether. I don't know if that's because of the vinegar itself or my goats are just not prone to it. Anyway, it might be worth looking into. They don't mind drinking it at all.
     
  7. milkmaid

    milkmaid I'm not addicted - I'm in love!

    I just did a search on it and found that some people are saying it works and some are saying it doesn't. So I can't say for sure. My goats have done fine on it though.
     
  8. bobb

    bobb New Member

    5
    Sep 20, 2010
    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for the replies.

    Stacey, thanks for the info.Your suggestion of 2 Tablespoons a day sounds do-able, but I'm not sure it matches up with the info on the link Sweetgoats provided....see below. Any ideas on how to flavor it would be greatly appreciated. I'm feeling dumb again.....you mentioned "loose minerals". I was never told about giving my goats any mineral suppliments.....can you tell me exactly what minerals I should be giving them?

    Sweetgoats....thanks for the link. My only problem with their dosing is that at 1.56 lbs of AC per 60 lbs of goat I'd need to mix almost 5 lbs of AC in a gallon of water for my 180 lb goat. 5 lbs of AC is a LOT of AC.....I don't think 5 lbs of AC will fit in a gallon container without the water, so it will probably be a paste at that concentration, not a liquid. I think if I had to drink such a mixture I'd rather cut off my own "pizzel". :eek:)

    Ok, guys................is "pizzel" really a word????

    Have a great night,
    bob
     
  9. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Hi bobb....yep, "pizzle" is a word....it's the little string looking thing at the end of the buck/wether penis...even bull cattle have them.

    As far as providing minerals...if you are in an are that has a Tractor Supply, I get the Manna Pro goat minerals, it has AC in it and all the other neccessary minerals that keep goats healthy.
     
  10. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    Bob,

    Yep they need a good mineral that is a loose one. The problem with blocks is 1. they can not get enough mineral by licking it with out burning their tongue, and 2. if they really are lacking a mineral and they need it they might try to bite off a piece and it can break a tooth.

    Just watch when you are getting mineral, get only mineral the is if GOATS. NOT a Sheep and Goat one. The Sheep can not have copper and goats need it. The other thing you want to watch out for and beings you are having UC problems, make sure the Calcium to Phosphors ration is 2-1. If it has to much of one and not enough of the other it will or can cause UC problems also.
     
  11. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    WOW.. Really wish I'd seen this thread sooner...

    The "middle of the road" AC dosage for urinary calculi, according to Texas A&M University, is 260mg/kg. 60lbs is 27.22kg. 260*27.22 = 7077.2mg. 7077.2mg = 0.0156025552lbs -- NOT 1.56lbs!!

    In other words, your vet was too high by a factor of **100** on the dosage. That's 100x the amount he should have gotten, and yes, there is such a thing as ammonia toxicity. Anybody with any veterinary experience should have seen that 1.56lbs and thought to themselves "Wow...that can't be right."

    :hair:

    The surgery he had, by the way, is called a "urethrostemy."

    What this wether really needed was to be drenched with *7-8g* of AC dissolved in about 30ml of water for about a week, at the very beginning of his symptoms. He also needed an NSAID and some type of muscle relaxer (acepromazine) at the very beginning, followed by a good long round of dexamethasone and an antibiotic.


    Vets, sometimes...man, I'm tellin' ya. :veryangry:
     
  12. bobb

    bobb New Member

    5
    Sep 20, 2010
    Hi CM,

    Thanks for the info. The dosage I was quoting was from the website Stacey provided (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/ammonium ... goats.html). The dosage they recommended (1.56 lbs per gallon of water) was for a 60 lb goat. My goat weighs 3 times that so I multiplied by 3 to come up with the 5 lbs of AC for his bodyweight. That dosage is for the treatment of calculi stones AFTER they have formed, not a preventative dosage. Was your "middle of the road" dosage for treatement also, or for prevention? I've been giving my guy a tablespoon of AC in 30ml of water each morning with a drench syringe. I'll have to figure out what that dosage is, but both my vet and a gal who raises goats around here seemed to agree that was the right dosage.

    My goat is doing well. The vet came out to remove the stitches last week and he's peeing well. Unfortunately when they did the surgery they must have hit the nerve that controls his right rear hoof, as now it drags and he walks on it buckled under....until he stops and moves it forward to get the hoof back under his leg. I found a small hand brace at Walmart yesterday and when it stops raining I'm going to jury rig it to his back leg to keep the hoof from tucking under. It's basically a strip of cloth covered metal with a velcro strap at each end. If it doesn't work I'll make something else up.

    His other problem is that I don't have much I can feed him. I'm going to post this question seperately.....so if anyone has any ideas please let me know. In a nutshell I feed him hay (orchard grass) only, as I'm afraid to give him anything else due to the calculi stones. He eats the hay, but he should be eating more. I also give him a banana each morning before I drench him with the AC coctail. I've tried peanut butter, melon, pumpkin, nectarines, and he's not interested. I just read about a grain called Purina Show Goat that has the AC in it and my vet said I could give him only a cup or less each day. I'm a little hesitant to give him any grain, but he just loved Goat Chow before he developed the stones. I only gave him a handful or less every few days, but I'm sure it contributed to his calculi. I also tried the powdered minerals (Manna I believe) and he didn't eat it. I can't topcoat the hay, so I'm not sure how to give him his minerals. If he likes the Show Goat I'm thinking I can try to mix it with that. I'll go post this topic now before I forget.

    thanks,
    bob
     
  13. jessica4h

    jessica4h New Member

    1
    May 19, 2011
    hello, i have a question about my boer wether. he's my market goat for fair this June. He got urinary calculi about 2 weeks ago, and we got him some ammonium chloride. After a few days of the ammonium chloride he seemed to be better. I noticed a few days ago that he was acting like he was in a lot of pain when he tried to urinate. He is still able to urinate however, he grunts and strains when he tries to. He has been laying down a lot also. I have no idea what it could be. I asked one of the ladies at the veterinarian office and she said she doesnt know... I'm hesistant to take him to the vet because i dont have a lot of money to spend on him and he's going to fair to be slaughtered anyways.. any input helps!!please and thank you
     
  14. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    hi jessica....I would be giving him the AC on a daily basis...either in his feed or inb a loose mineral, sounds like he's having a reoccurance of the stones.