HELP! Weak and floppy kid

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by drafthorsechick, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. drafthorsechick

    drafthorsechick New Member

    37
    Oct 15, 2007
    Iowa
    Hi all,

    I need some help here. I bought a nubian doe a couple weeks ago who was supposed to be 10 months old, and was not told she was bred. I put her out with some other goats who were a bit mean to her, but thought they were establishing the pecking order, and since I didn't realize she was going to kid, figured they would work things out.

    This evening when I went out to milk, this doe was in the corner of the pen, and the kid, already dry, was lying limp on the ground. I thought he was dead at that point, but when I picked him up he was breathing. I took him and a bottle of the dam's colostrum to the vet who stomach tubed him, gave him a tetnus shot, and a shot of antibiotics. I have been offering the little guy mama's milk every two hours, but he has only the slightest suckle reflex, and is very weak. He can at least stand now, which is better than earlier, but still can't walk.

    I switched him to milk replacer rather than the doe's milk because he wasn't getting stronger, and I didn't know if goats can have Rh imcompatibility and figured that if they could, the milk could kill him. (I know, it's a stretch, but I really want to save this kid if possible.)

    Is there any hope with one who is this weak?

    Any and all advice would be hugely appreciated!

    Thanks so much,

    Therese and LG (Little Goat)
     
  2. AlaskaBoers

    AlaskaBoers New Member

    May 6, 2008
    Wasilla Alaska
    Hi
    What's his temperature? kids under 100F need to be warmed.
    I'd put a sweater or dog coat on him, and put him on a warm blanket or heated pad. Keep feeding him a little milk, and a squirt of nutridrench or goatade, would help. You could also get Bo-Se from your vet unless you already have some, and give him a dose of that.
     

  3. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    It sounds like you have a preemie. I personally would keep him on moms milk if at all possible... you will need to watch him to make sure he stays warm as a preemie will have trouble regulating their own temperature. I would be feeding small amounts every 2 hours for the first week. If mom was trying to mother him at all... I would let him try to nurse off of her.... mommas milk is always best. :) I put doggie jackets on my preemie kids and give 2 cc's of goatade to give them a jumpstart.

    Hope that helps! Good luck with your new "LG" :)
     
  4. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    hehehe.... we posted at the same time Katrina.... great minds think alike! :)

    Oh... I just reread the inital post and caught the "weak sucking reflex" so scratch trying to put him back on mom yet... a bottle will be much easier for him and you.... that way you can monitor his feed intake.
     
  5. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    It's extremely important to keep him warm! Blankets will not do the trick. You need to put him on a heating pad, hot water bottles, warm up blankets in the microwave for 30-40seconds, etc.

    Force feed him if you have to, but he needs something warm in his stomach. You can add a little molasses, but his body can't digest or use any nutrients at all if he's too cold.

    The tetanus shot was a good idea, but it probably wont help him right now. Mom's colostrum should give him the antibodies he needs for his defense against it for the first three days or so. So I would try to keep him on mom's milk.

    If you have BoSe give it to him. This is what White Muscle Disease really looks like.

    If you have a tiny stomach tube (a very small red rubber tube that may say "French feeding tube" on the label) you can push it down his throat and inject milk down the tube straight into his rumen. If he's too weak to nurse then he will still be able to digest something and the warmth will help him too.

    Before performing heroic measures check his palate top AND bottom. If it's cleft, then it would be better for him to be put to sleep rather than let him starve to death. Check for an anus. If he doesn't have one it would be better to put him to sleep.

    If all else fails call your vet or your local emergency veterinary clinic and see what they can do for you. If they have no idea how to treat a baby goat tell them 300ml NaCl/dextrose solution (in a full 1000ml bag remove 50ml of NaCl and add 50ml dextrose) or lactated ringers solution on a IV drip at 60gtt/min (micro-drip), put him on oxygen, and keep him in an incubator or on a heating pad. I have seen that bring baby goats back from the brink of death.

    Good Luck! Keep us updated! :hug:
     
  6. drafthorsechick

    drafthorsechick New Member

    37
    Oct 15, 2007
    Iowa
    Thanks, all, this is hugely helpful!

    I'm not sure if he is preemie or not--he is fully formed but that doesn't mean anything, I guess. He has passed the merconium, if that means anything?

    What is goatade? Do I buy it or make it?

    How much BoCe do I give a guy his size? He doesn't weigh very much, and I do have some on hand.

    I am keeping him on top of me, under a blanket, do I still need a heating pad, or am I an okay heating pad? His dam is interested, but I can't keep him warm enough with her, and he is in no way strong enough to stand, so right now I think my only choice is to milk her and feed him through the bottle. I will go back to strictly her milk if that's better.

    Do I add the molassas to the milk, or feed it separately? How much should I give him?

    What should his temp. be? I'll take it right now and report back.

    Can a preemie be saved, if that is the trouble? I'm trying not to get too attached, but I have had this goat on my tummy most of the day, (I've been home sick with a horrible cold) and if I can save him he'll definitely be a pet wether.

    Thanks so much!

    Therese
     
  7. drafthorsechick

    drafthorsechick New Member

    37
    Oct 15, 2007
    Iowa
    Temp. is 101.2, which would be normal if he were a foal--but not sure about a kid??
     
  8. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Give him 0.5cc BoSe according to the dose on the thread labeled "BoSe" in this forum. I've never given it personally.

    Check his temperature with a thermometer and see how cold he is. If he is under 100F then yes, get a heating pad, warm up that towel in the microwave (30sec), or put hot water bottles around him.

    Her milk is better right now as long as it's warm when he eats it. If it's cold then it will make his entire body cool down and that's exactly what we don't want. Add 1 TBSP molasses to 1 8oz baby bottle of momma's milk/colostrum and stir it in so it dissolves as much as possible. Don't try to give it until his body reaches at least 100F. Normal goat temperature is between 101 - 102.5F so that's his ideal range at this point too. 100F is good enough for his organs to function but anything lower and he starts to shut down.

    Will he nurse at all? If he is able to swallow you can just hold his mouth closed and squeeze the milk into his mouth until he swallows. If you feel like he's too weak for that then don't attempt it.

    Honestly, if you really want to save him and he is doing this badly, I would take him to an emergency veterinary clinic in your area or you can call your vet if they have an on-call tech. The baby probably needs more help than you can give him at this point and the doctors can tell you whether he has some congenital problem that is causing his condition to be so bad and if it's fixable or not.

    Edit: Just got your other post! His temp is good! Keeping him on your lap seems perfect and feed him as much milk with molasses as he can take. Try force feeding if you think he's strong enough to swallow. If you have an Emergency clinic (or any veterinary clinic with an on-call vet or tech . . . call them if they are just cat and dog clinics too) I would call them too. See what they recommend at least. Mention what I said in my other post and see if they would be willing to do that for a goat.
     
  9. drafthorsechick

    drafthorsechick New Member

    37
    Oct 15, 2007
    Iowa
    Jess,

    I totally hear what you're saying about taking LG to the vet's, but the sad truth of the matter is that you and Katrina have already told me more about helping to save this little guy than my vet did when I took him into the clinic earlier. The only emergency clinic anywhere near me is over an hour away and is strictly small animal, so I'm pretty sure that the vets there would know even less about my kid than my vet does, since he is a mixed practice. I can give injections, and will monitor him all night long, so I truly do think he's better off with me.

    I am totally KICKING myself for not taking the stomach tube that my vet used earlier home with me--but LG has had moments of latching onto the bottle, so I think I can get milk into him orally.

    I'm headed to the barn fridge to get the BoSe, and get more milk from LG's dam, but will check back and keep everyone updated. Also if there is anything else I should do, please let me know.

    Thanks!

    Therese
     
  10. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    His temp is normal. :)

    You can order goatade from: http://goatsupplies.netfirms.com/vitsupp.html I swear by it.... I always give goatade whenever ANYTHING goes wrong with my goaties... they love it and it works.

    You can order BoSe from http://www.vetserv-usa.com but you will need 1/4 of a cc asap for him so you may want to get in touch with your vet and find out if they are at reasonable in price (mine out here charge upwards of $100 a cc.... just because they think they can.)

    I would continue to milk out momma and feed him her milk. If he is having trouble regulating his temp I would put a sweater on him.... though I'm sure being snuggled up with you is quite acceptable to him! LOL

    Here is a pic of my preemie triplets (2 1/2 weeks old)... they were sooooo tiny at birth and they had no teeth... the buckling that is standing in the picture could not stand either.... I had to give him BoSe and splint his legs so he could walk.
     

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  11. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Therese,

    I know it's tough and really, there are some weak babies that just aren't meant for this world :tears:. But, if you are willing to take the long drive to the E-clinic then call them first and tell them the situation. If they say, "We have no idea how to treat goats" then just ask them if they would be willing to do this for him:
    1)300ml NaCl/dextrose solution (in a full 1000ml bag remove 50ml of NaCl and add 50ml dextrose) OR lactated ringers solution on a IV drip at 60gtt/min (micro-drip) - the first is ideal, but ringers will be ok if in a pinch . . . they can even drip at 40gtt/min depending on his dehydration status
    2) put him on oxygen (if he needs it)
    3) keep him in an incubator or on a heating pad.
    4) monitor TPR, CRT, MM, and provide more fluids if necessary
    even cat/dog clinics have all the means necessary to do that for you . . . and if you are a paying customer then there's no reason why they would refuse you. If you are up for it . . . i'd say, give it a try. :shrug:
    This is stuff that could really help the baby and it's also stuff that you can't do at home. You never know until you call and ask them if they are willing to work on a baby goat.

    If you think that he can last till morning then call a closer clinic that's open tomorrow and you can probably pick up another small feeding tube from them . . . and if he still looks terrible you can ask them to give him some fluids like I mentioned above if you want to.

    Since he is latching onto the bottle that's a pretty good sign! :) I would try the BoSe and give him an hour or so to see how he does on that. Also give him 1cc Vit.B complex too . . . it's an appetite stimulant. and you can't overdose him with that one :) Give the B-complex every 12 hours if you think it helps. If you have any Nutridrench you can put that in the milk instead of molasses. Or you can just squeeze it right into his mouth.

    Is he having trouble breathing? Is he trying to stand? Able to pick up his head? Is he peeing ok? Do his gums or eyelids look pale? Does he have any siblings? How dehydrated is he (tent the skin of his flank in your hands . . . it should take 2-3 seconds to return to normal)?

    I'll be thinking and praying for you two :pray:
     
  12. AlaskaBoers

    AlaskaBoers New Member

    May 6, 2008
    Wasilla Alaska
    IMO, if you cant take him to a vet, do the best you can. It sounds like you're doing a great job.
    Just keep trying to keep him warm, feed him every 2-3 hours and let him try to stand if he wants to. BoSe would be great .5cc like jess mentioned I think.
    jess also had a good idea with VitB, that would make him hungry and want to eat..how's he little champ doing?
     
  13. drafthorsechick

    drafthorsechick New Member

    37
    Oct 15, 2007
    Iowa
    Hi Jess,

    I called the E-clinic, and though they are willing to work on a kid, they told me that the minimum price would be $500 for the call, and would probably be twice that for a final bill. I wish that I had that kind of money to put into this little one, but I am unemployed at the moment, so simply am not able to go to those kind of lengths.

    He is urinating and defecating just fine, but is a bit dehydrated going by the skin pinch test.

    If he is alive in the morning, I will take him back to my own vet, who will let me take the IV bags home with me so I can give fluids subQ at home or leave him if he needs to stay in the clinic. My vet allows me to run a tab and pay things off, which I can do, but the E-clinic wanted cash or credit card up front.

    He has periods of time when he looks perky, but is going through a pretty floppy stage right now. I will say that he did NOT like the drench, and was not a happy goat when I syringed it down his throat. I followed it with a milk chaser, and right now he is sleeping hard. His breathing is just fine but he is definitely weak, so hopefully the BoSe will help with that if this is WMD.

    Thank you again for all the help, and your preemie kids are absolutely ADORABLE! I hope that I can take some pics of LG in a couple weeks to show you the kid that you helped save, but if not, then as you said, some just don't make it. We'll have to see what morning brings.

    Therese
     
  14. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I think you are doing just fine -- I had a totally floppy kid like yours syringe fed her, gave her nutri drench and slept with her and in 2 hours she was waking me up licking my face! So those premies can make it without desperate measures.

    Also had a runt/premie born the other day -- she needed extra TLC but I left her with mom and she is doing great now 1 week later. The BoSe shot really did help her too.

    Hope he makes it to this morning so you can get the SQ fluids from the vet. That will really help him.

    If he temp ever goes lower then 100 switch to a coffee, karo and whisky (optional) mix and give him 3ccs of it. This will give him an energy boost that will also warm him up inside.

    Tubing is so easy -- if you can get a tube and syringe that will really help you to get milk itno him fast. I always need an extra hand so I have someone else push the syringe plunger or poor the milk but in a pinch you could possibly do it yourself
     
  15. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Crap. :( I was afraid of that :doh:. After-hours clinics can sometimes be outrageously expensive. They get more pricey the later it gets too. It would be good for the baby so I thought I'd encourage it . . . but that's a whole lot of money. :sigh:

    If he fought you when you drenched him that is an excellent sign!! The crankier they are being handled the stronger and better they feel (isn't that ironic, lol :p)!

    Have you done SQ fluids before? Just curious :chin: . Your vet can even put in an IV catheter and if he/she sends you home with the fluids and with the catheter still in the baby you can even do it IV. Sounds like baby could just use SQ. How long did his skin stay up after you pinched it?

    If he made it and is looking really good you might not even need to take him to the vet today . . . but I would pick up the feeding tube and fluids just in case he crashes Sunday when no one is open at all.

    I hope he made it through the night . . . I've been thinking about you guys! :hug:
     
  16. drafthorsechick

    drafthorsechick New Member

    37
    Oct 15, 2007
    Iowa
    Re: HELP! Weak and floppy kid--UPDATE

    Okay, just got off the phone with my vet, and LG (who, thankfully, was still alive this morning) is on his way into the clinic with hubby, since I'm here with a horrid respiratory infection.

    Vet is going to put a catheter into LG while at the clinic, and give him the BoSe, Vit. B, 60cc of milk via stomach tube, and the first dose of the Dextrose solution. He's then going to send LG back with me so I can monitor him and since he'll have the catheter will be able to give him additional fluids as needed. I know that some of you are wondering about me trying to do this myself, but since it's the weekend no one will be at the clinic after noon, which is why my vet suggested the catheter.

    So please keep the good thoughts coming! LG had some appetite this morning, but still doesn't quite have good control of his tongue--I put some feeding syringes on the list of things to bring back to the vet, so that should help. I'm not sure if he is preemie, was injured at birth, oxygen issues, or what, but his tongue is thicker than normal, which makes it hard for him to wrap it around the nipple. He is bleating at me, which I consider a hugely good sign.

    I definitely think that if LG makes it (fingers crossed, believe me!) that because of the circumstances of his birth, he's probably going to have to be a bottle baby. His dam is still wanting him, so hopefully he will be able to at least be in with her, and maybe will be able to latch on as he gets stronger. We'll take this one step at a time--I'm sure not worrying about whether he's going to be dam raised or a bottle baby at this point, I just want him to make it.

    Therese
     
  17. drafthorsechick

    drafthorsechick New Member

    37
    Oct 15, 2007
    Iowa
    Jess,

    It is ironic that they fight you trying to help the better they feel! And LG absolutely HATED the drench. His little upper lip curled up, and he gave me evil goat eyes. :laugh:

    He already has such personality, I sure hope this little brown kid can pull through--he's obviously a fighter, no question about that.

    Thank you SO much for such wonderful, specific information--I read it from your post to my vet, then copied it pretty much word for word for him to have when hubby gets there with LG.

    Thanks to everyone who chimed in on this thread, truly, everyone's help and support is hugely appreciated, and will keep everyone updated on how the little fellow is doing.

    Therese
     
  18. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Hooray for cranky babies!! That's a great sign! :leap: I am so happy that he made it through!!!!! :hug: :stars: I know you said that you were sick earlier . . . I'm really sorry. It's hard enough to have a problem baby but when you are sick yourself it's really trying. You're doing a great job for the baby! :grouphug:

    You're vet suggested everything that I hoped he would. Putting a catheter in is the hardest part of giving IV fluids IMO (I still can't do it right). After that all you need to do is make sure the drip-rate is ok and that there are no air bubbles or clots in the line. It's not too bad . . . just a lot to remember to check for before actually putting fluids in the baby. You can give the same fluids SQ as you can IV so if you think he's looking much better you can try SQ.

    That's weird about his tongue . . . makes me think that he really is a preemie and not just a weak baby. Is his tongue a weird color or is it just thick? Is it his tongue that's thick or his mouth that's too small? I'm asking because the farm called me recently about a baby that was just born and couldn't nurse. When I got there he had already died and I realized that he wasn't just weak, but his mouth was actually deformed. :tears:

    LG is his name? What's it stand for? :love:
     
  19. drafthorsechick

    drafthorsechick New Member

    37
    Oct 15, 2007
    Iowa
    LG stands for Little Goat. Hubby named him, and when hubby takes an interest in any animal, he gets to name it whatever he wants since I'm the critter person in the family.

    LG's mouth isn't deformed, and he has his teeth--not through very much, but I can definitely feel them when I touch his gums. His tongue is thicker than it should be, and a little darker than normal towards the tip. It makes me wonder if he was stepped on by one of the other goats in the pen, or slightly oxygen deprived. I am pretty sure he doesn't have brain damage, or if he does it's not very severe, as he bleats, curls his lip, and does other goat-y things. Any thoughts on what that might be?

    I did mention giving the fluids SQ to my vet, but he said that when things are added to the bag that he feels they need to be IV, so that's why he is sending LG back with the cath. I've given fluids before at home, so feel pretty comfortable doing that--but I definitely appreciate the reminders of what to watch for.

    I'm very much hoping that this jump start will get LG strong enough to walk, move, and continue on from here as a normal bottle baby.

    Do you work for a vet? You really sound like you know your stuff!

    Therese
     
  20. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    I thought it was probably Little Guy or something. He sounds like a real trooper! Glad hubby is taking an interest too! If he likes LG then he can help you treat him while you're sick. :thumb:

    He certainly could have been oxygen deprived or stepped on OR both. Does he curl his lip very often? Cry often? Sometimes that can be a sign of pain in babies. Is he painful when you squish his tummy or when you move him around? Do his legs seem like they hurt? If you run your hand down his spine is he ok with that or does he shake or grind his teeth?

    I would start feeling him all over to see if he is acting painful in any one particular spot . . . focusing on his tummy, legs, and back. You can listen to his lungs and heart to see if they sound ok. Listen for crackling in the lungs or mummers in the heart. Feel for any swollen or bruised areas of his body indicative of a smushing-event, lol :p. If you want to have your vet get a lateral x-ray of his chest, lungs, ribs, and back (all in one x-ray) that wouldn't hurt, but it would be pretty $$$ :shrug: . I'd say feel him up first and see if you find anything abnormal :wink:

    It's awesome that you've given fluids before! It scared my pants off the first time I did it, lol :help: I'm always afraid that I'm going to do something to kill the animal with kindness. Great that you know what you're doing! :thumb:

    I do work in a vet clinic actually :D. Just a dog/cat clinic unfortunately, but I'm in school for veterinary technology right now and they know that I make very little money so whenever I have a sicky critter I can take it into school and they teach me how to treat it myself for free or for cost AND it's great training :thumb:. It's soooo awesome . . . I have great teachers :love: