Holistic Section

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by Robin, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. Robin

    Robin New Member

    Hi, I'm new to goats, but do holistic methods when treating all my animals.
    I would like to suggest a section for us die hard (no pesticide, organic, holistic method...people)

    Just a thought. I know their is a few of us out there and we would love to share what works with the holistic treatments...

    Robin
     
  2. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    ok I moved this and deleted the replies that were agreeing with the idea. I figured since Robin suggested it she should get to be the one who "starts" it.

    Now go right ahead and ask your holistic goat raising questions and add the suggestions and ideas for our members here from those of you who do use these methods.
     

  3. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    I'm here to help! We've been doing it naturally from the start and we have had great success. If you have any questions, just ask! :D
     
  4. sunshineandtulip

    sunshineandtulip New Member

    46
    Nov 5, 2007
    Missouri Ozarks
    What do you use for grain to get organic?? I mean I dont think you can buy organic grain around here. So what do you do???
     
  5. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    correct me if I am wrong but organic is not the same as holistic. Though probably anyone doing holistic medicine with their animals would try to do things as organic as possible.
     
  6. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    Ok, pardon me here, as I am very anti organic(I know, oxy moron) But we try to do things natural. Natural and organic are 2 different things believe it or not.
    Organic, whether its with crops or animals, means you can't use any chemicals, anti biotics, medications etc etc. Everything has to be certifed organic that you feed your animals from feed to minerals and hay. If your animal is in a situation where they are in a life or death situation and require anti biotics you can give them antibiotics, but its a last resort, then after giving them the anti biotics they have to be sold when they recover. There are many other things and its not worth it imo.
    We prefer natural because when we need to we still have the option of doing things conventionally if our goats are sick. We do things natural and market them as natural and we have no problems selling to our customers.
    We are farmers, we farm quite a bit of land and we do it all conventionally. The practices with our farming and the practices with our animals do not cross. We are conventional when it comes to our farming, we spray chemicals, we plant GMO crops, we are constantly getting bashed by organic people. They just don't get it. They think we can just snap our fingers and change our ways. Yeah, right. I still don't get why they don't allow fertilizer(ie lime, potash, etc) it comes from the ground and its not processed. And GMO(genetically modified organism) because of that, we are actually spraying less chemicals on our crops than we were before.
    We rent all of our land and it takes a minimum of 5 years for transitioning to even consider the land to be organic. 5 years, if we were to lose that land all of our efforts would be lost. We can't stand for crop loss either with the organic grains. The list goes on and on.
    I am very opinionated on this subject and I could go on and on and on........
    Anyway, for grain, oats, barley and wheat are most commonly used as covercrops for hay. That means that they are not commonly sprayed, and if they are sprayed, it is before the plant has a head and it does not affect the grain(ie residue) same with BOSS, it's not a cover crop but they don't spray it for anything. With corn, we don't like to feed GMO corn to our animals. We will our chickens if that's all we have(in fact, our chickens grew better on GMO corn, can't figure that one out) but we will never feed GMO corn to our goats. If you feed corn to your goats and care about being natural, look for corn that is non-GMO or organic.
     
  7. sunshineandtulip

    sunshineandtulip New Member

    46
    Nov 5, 2007
    Missouri Ozarks
    I dont feed corn to my goats but the little bit that is mixed n their grain.. I was just questioning the organic because it was mentioned in the first post... I was curious on how to feed them organically. I only have goats for our milk and meat and sell some of the kids. I just have a small farm. Goats and chickens the main focus... I like to add as much as I can that is more natural. Holistic means you use both isnt that right or is that homepathic? I cant remember at the moment.
     
  8. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    Homeopathy is a type of medicine, I don't know what holistic is, I rhink it is another word for natural but I'm not sure.
     
  9. Muddy Creek Farm

    Muddy Creek Farm New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Keokuk, Iowa
    I like organic. And I HATE GMO....... but that's just me :wink:
     
  10. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    Well that is understandable and you are entitled to your opinion. But you are more than likely looking at GMO from a consumers point of view. Personally, from a consumers point of view, I do not think that GMO is the greatest thing as far as food goes. But, you also have to see it from a producer's point of view(which is what I don't like about the organic people that bash us, they don't see OUR view)
    Because of GMO crops, you have no idea how much we have saved as far as chemicals, fuel, cost per acre, etc go. Because of GMO crops, we are spraying less chemicals and burning less fuel than we were before. Also, before we used GMO crops, we had to spray this stuff called feridan(sp?) and after you sprayed it, all the birds in the area would die or get sick and we couldn't let our dogs go out in the field. You cannot believe how much less chemicals we are spraying because of them. Non GMO crops require spraying often.
    I would also like to mention that another reason why we aren't organic is because we have been to several 'organic' farms, none of them were certified but they all fed certified grain and did all the organic practices etc. I have never seen animals in such poor health in my entire life. They were dingy, scruffy, skinny, wormy etc. I've seen cows at 2000 head dairies that were happier than those animals! How do you know they are content? They chew their cud.
    Now, you can do organic correctly, but most often the only time I've seen organic done correctly is if the people doing it were farmers(like us) to begin with and understood the jist of it.
    That's just my opinion. :)
     
  11. Sara

    Sara New Member

    605
    Oct 4, 2007
    Ellensburg, WA
    Um Holistic means that you are taking care of the whole system, making sure the immune system is strong so it can take care of any illness that you can't catch. I think. I could be wrong though.
     
  12. sunshineandtulip

    sunshineandtulip New Member

    46
    Nov 5, 2007
    Missouri Ozarks
    Yep that covers Holisitc!! I went back and looked it up!!
     
  13. Muddy Creek Farm

    Muddy Creek Farm New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Keokuk, Iowa
    We try to do things as naturally as possible.

    one of the thins we use Molly's Herbal Wormer - from Fias Co Farm. (I know.... it's not holistic)


    Oh I know I AM looking at it with a consumers point of view..... because I am not a farmer, if I was I'm sure I would think differently :wink:
     
  14. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    Homeopathy as a medicine treats as a whole, rather than treating a specific symptom.
     
  15. sixshooterfarm

    sixshooterfarm New Member

    580
    Oct 18, 2007
    Valley Springs, Ca
    We have been doig the all natural thing for a while. Ok let me explain it this way, on how we do it, and you all are probably gonna laugh. We have been doing all natural homeopathic wormer. I mix my own and I know exactly where the materials come from , my sister works at the local health food store. I make my own batch and we now are actually offering it for sale. We feed as little grain as possible....we do this because we feel that the stronger the goat the better, and as cruel as it sounds we like the strong to survive and weed out the real hard keepers. Now for the does in milk....we do what we need to to make them happy and healthy. We give antibiotics when we have to, life or death. I had a question a few weeks ago about a cold running through the herd, and wether or not I should give the ones with real snotty nasty noses some antibiotics. We try to make the whole goat healthy and happy ( holistic) I just think so strongly that let the body fight for itself, and the wormer does that, allow the body to boost its own immune system and naturally fight those worms. And ever since we have gone to the natural wormer...I dont think my herd as EVER looked this good! just my opinion :D
     
  16. Muddy Creek Farm

    Muddy Creek Farm New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Keokuk, Iowa
    I love the Herbal wormer, and I'de like to start doing our own fecal tests in the Spring. I really hate using antibiotics of any kind, unless I HAVE to.
     
  17. sixshooterfarm

    sixshooterfarm New Member

    580
    Oct 18, 2007
    Valley Springs, Ca
    Hey there muddy creek! Wanna buy some of it off me lol :shock: Mollys herbals are just a bunch of herbs thrown in a bag right ( I am totally not saying that in a bad way!) Mine are very very easy to administer. My herbal wormer is ground up and made into a powder, so all you have to do is #1 add some water and drench them. #2 mix into their grain and they cannot pick through it #3. put it into empty capsules ( which I can make capsules for you) #4 any way your heart desires!! let me know and tell everyone you know!!
     
  18. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    What's in your herbal wormer? I like something that you can drench them with since they don't always eat it :roll:
     
  19. KikoFaerie

    KikoFaerie New Member

    162
    Jan 21, 2008
    So. Central Kansas
    Hello all!
    I am new to this board and first - Thanks, Stacey, for inviting me! I had intended to just lurk and absorb for a while, but this particular thread caught my attention.
    We raise our Kiko herd naturally, including worming.
    Everyone has their own way of doing things, and as I always say, there are wrong ways of doing things, but no ONE right way! It all depends on your herd, your goals, your environment, etc. So I am in no way advocating "my way," but did want to share how we handle this particular issue, in the hopes that it might appeal to some, or at least give a different perspective.
    First, we worm only as needed, and use FAMACHA scoring to determine who needs worming. For individual worming, I have a tincture I made up from a combo of herbs that is used if only one or two goats are in need. For general worming of the whole herd or a large group, a combo of herbs is generally added to their water supply through a moon cycle, and sometimes also added to grain through the same cycle. This combo is not always the same and is also given AS NEEDED. Just like chemical wormers, a resistance CAN be built up to herbal wormers and is why we don't give these all the time. Goats will eat these herbs if they are needed. Just as in the wild, the goat will pick what its body needs at any given time and will browse from plant to plant to acquire what its body is in need of.
    What herbs I can't grow on my own in my herb garden are purchased in bulk. (And you may be surprised just what common plants ARE natural wormers!) There is no need to do anything to them except put them out for the goats. If I had enough land, I would have a large plot of herbs that the goats would be allowed to forage in from time to time so they could "pick and choose" which they wanted/needed.
    I know a lot of people (and I was one when I first decided to take the "natural" path with my animals) who automatically think it is more expensive and/or complicated, but we have found neither of those to be true and it has turned out to be cheaper and easier than the "conventional" method, for us.
    Having said that, it does not mean that if a natural method is not working for any given problem and it's a matter of the animal's life or health, we don't use any of the conventional or chemical methods. There's no point in touting our "natural" herd if they've all died!
     
  20. KikoFaerie

    KikoFaerie New Member

    162
    Jan 21, 2008
    So. Central Kansas
    FYI - Here is a very good explanation of "homeopathic" taken from Dr. Waltz's natural goat production page on her web site, in case anyone would like to better understand what "homeopathic" means:
    " Let's start with natural wormers. There are some commercial products out there on the market, but I do not use them. Most are listed as "homeopathic" wormers, and as I mentioned in the morning session, that is a bit different than you may think. Homeopathic remedies are not "home remedies" and are made from the "essence" of something. So, for example, if one was making a homeopathic remedy for a roundworm, you would take a roundworm, soak it in the liquid being used, also called "menstrum", shake that mixture several times a day, remove the roundworm, add liquid, shake several times a day, and do that for many days until what is left is a liquid that has the essence of the roundworm. This is called a "succussion". If it is a remedy for an illness, cells from an animal with that infection, whether it be skin scrapings or mucous or whatever depending on the ailment, would be prepared in the same manner. While homeopathy can be very effective in many instances, I am not convinced as a professional in the field of natural medicine that this would be a most effective way of worming a goat. Parasites of the same type vary from location to location, whether it be size or whatever, and so to be truly effective for your herd the succussion would have to be made from parasites that are from your specific herd in your specific location. This is not something easily undertaken by a beginner without training in homeopathy and making homeopathic remedies. Homeopathic remedies are, however, very good for replacements for vaccines and for prevention of certain diseases in livestock.
    Instead I use plant medicines, as they are readily available, and many can be grown in your own fields for free choice use. What can't be grown in your area is easy to purchase from many available sources in bulk, which reduces costs and keeps plenty on hand for use as needed."