How close?

Discussion in 'Dairy Diaries' started by Crissa, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. Crissa

    Crissa New Member

    Oct 7, 2007
    Cashion, Oklahoma
    How close can you safely breed goats that are related? I'm just curious because someone told me the other day that I could safely breed Orion to his daughters. I'm just not sure. What are your opinions?
     
  2. Epona142

    Epona142 The farm that Hope began

    May 25, 2008
    Madisonville, TX
    PERSONALLY, I don't mind line breeding too much, when its not excessive.

    I've done it in dogs (father > daughter or mother > son) when it appeared to be a beneficial match.

    As long as neither has faults that could become emphasized, I don't see any harm.
     

  3. Crissa

    Crissa New Member

    Oct 7, 2007
    Cashion, Oklahoma
    By faults do you mean like parrot mouth, etc? Because they don't have any problems like that at all.
     
  4. Epona142

    Epona142 The farm that Hope began

    May 25, 2008
    Madisonville, TX
    Yeah, anything like that. Say the sire (or even grandsire) has parrot mouth, and you breed him to his daughter. Even if she doesn't exhibit parrot mouth, she could still be carrying the genetics for it, resulting in possibly terrible parrot mouth kids. Of course, this works both ways.

    As long as the line is clean from genetic flaws a couple generations back, you should be fine.

    And I avoid super close breedings, like siblings, but I'm sure you know that lol.
     
  5. Crissa

    Crissa New Member

    Oct 7, 2007
    Cashion, Oklahoma
    I don't think any of the ancestry has any problems, but I'll see if I can't find out for sure. Yep I know not to breed siblings. If it's clean then I think I'm going to breed Finale to Orion and see what I get.
     
  6. Crissa

    Crissa New Member

    Oct 7, 2007
    Cashion, Oklahoma
    Oh and thanks for the help!
     
  7. Epona142

    Epona142 The farm that Hope began

    May 25, 2008
    Madisonville, TX
    No problem of course! Hopefully someone who is experienced in line breeding with goats will come along and not make me look silly.

    :ROFL:
     
  8. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Father to daughter is a very risky thing and not recommended by those I talk to. Grandfather to granddaughter or a like distance is ok or having the buck's sire the same as the dam's grandsire etc thats more of an ideal linebreeding otherwise you are dealing with inbreeding.

    Remember if there is even a slight issue like toeing out or not so level top-line, loose shoulders, nondairy skin, etc you will increase the risk of the conformation issue to be more pronounced in close breedings like father to daughter.

    Issues like parrot mouth or double teats shouldn't be bred anyway so that isnt the kind of faults you shoudl be looking for in your dam and sire matching but their compatibility to perfect the over all appearance of the goat as well as the udder.

    here is a good article on the difference between linebreeding and inbreeding

    http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issues/ ... _Hall.html
     
  9. Epona142

    Epona142 The farm that Hope began

    May 25, 2008
    Madisonville, TX
    I guess I should have been a little more specific, that ANY flaw could possibly become emphasized. And so can good points.

    It's a risk that people take, line breeding, and sometimes it works out with careful planning. We produced a German Shepherd Dog that was near perfect using very careful line breeding, but its tough.
     
  10. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    While I have never done it- we do have a buck that finished his MCH who is a father to daughter breeding:
    http://www.proctorhill.com/blingpage.htm

    I havent seen an udder from him yet- but his first daughter born here was fabulous- she placed 1st and 3rd in some very large junior classes this summer. She is here: http://www.proctorhill.com/charpage.htm (her front legs are too far forward- but the rest of her looks nice)


    So it can be done succesfully, but like the others said, there is potential it could not work out in your favor too
     
  11. AlaskaBoers

    AlaskaBoers New Member

    May 6, 2008
    Wasilla Alaska
    proctor- well, if I ever get a nigerian again, i hope it has the same markings as bling..gorgeous love it :love:
     
  12. Sweet Gum Minis

    Sweet Gum Minis New Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    Easley, SC
    I have decided to do my first line breeding here this year. Its an aunt/nephew crossing. I wouldn't breeding half or full blood siblings together but yes I would consider crossing dam/son or father/daughter IF the animals are very near excellent and have no flaws or extremely slight flaws. Preferrably if I was doing a dam/son or sire/daughter crossing there would be no flaws. Distant linebreedings are common in almost all pedigrees so its no big deal there.
     
  13. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    My Monster Roadster was an unintentional breeding of half brother to half sister (same sire - different dam) and although it came out all right - I am hesitant to do it again deliberately. I personally don't mind aunts / uncles / cousins or grandparents to grandkids as much - but if at all possible, I would prefer to see more space between them on the pedigree.
     
  14. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    I have done Father to Mother, Twin brother to twin Sister and I have had nothing but GREAT results. I do not always do it on purpose, they have other ideas what they want.

    It really depends on what they are like. For me if they have poor fiber to poo r fiber then guess what you get poor fiber, but then go the other way. I have had good fiber numbers to good fiber numbers and I get GREAT fiber numbers.
     
  15. Crissa

    Crissa New Member

    Oct 7, 2007
    Cashion, Oklahoma
    Hhmm, looks like I need to think VERY carefully about this then. Normally I wouldn't even really think about it as I would prefer not to, but Finale is HUGE for her age and I'd like to breed her, but I don't have the money for another buck. :( I guess I could look for someone who wouldn't mind me breeding to their buck, but I'm awfully picky. :scratch:
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    do either in their pedigree have any linebred animals? what are hers and his strengths and weaknesses?
     
  17. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    Personally i wouldnt do it. I have done two or three generations in between. Used two bucks consecutive years that have the ssame grandsire etc. But never that close. It internsifys good trains as well as bad. Not just for things like parrot mouth. But things like confirmation faults (weak in the chine, hockiness etc) The best thing to do is take a good hard look and feel of both animals. Does orion have flat ribs? Does his daughter have flat ribs? Who's are better? Is she an improvement over him? Look at them from behind, how straight are their legs? Is she an improvement? If she is an improvement over her dad then breeding her back to him could possibly take a step back in the wrong direction.
    Maybe someone in your area would be interested in a trade? Breed her to an outside buck and let them breed orion to one of their does.
    beth