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Ideas on helping this buck - joint issue?

3K views 26 replies 6 participants last post by  mariarose 
#1 ·
Please bear with me on this 'book' of a post. I don't want to leave anything out, and really need some ideas if anyone has any that can help.

A while back in the health section I asked if there was anything we could do to help a young buck's back legs get stronger. He seems very flexible from the hock down. Proper hoof trimming is definitely part of it, but I wonder if there is anything else we can do to help strengthen his back legs. He is strong, but stands funny, his outside toe on each foot seems to roll under even with some corrective trimming, which makes his hocks roll outward.

He is such a nice boy, my son wants to show him in an ABGA show, so I am really stressing about getting him ready. I have a farrier friend who is going to trim him again for me.

I feel he has been getting enough selenium, but wonder about Vit E?
3/05 (born) Selenium E Gel
4/05 Selenium E Gel
4/19 Selenium E Gel
5/09 1/2cc Bo-Se (guessing he was 60-65lbs)
7/03 Selenium E Gel

Noticed his back feet got worse in the last month, especially mid July.

This is his feed, although he doesn't like to eat the 'dust' so I need to find out what that is, if it's the mineral pack, then he's not getting the full benefit of the minerals.


He gets a tiny bit of this feed as well since this is what they eat outside of show season


We are currently using Manna Pro minerals but they don't really eat them.

Video was taken about a month ago right before first trimming with farrier


Day after trimming


He's back to walking like he did in the 1st video, and stands really goofy on those back feet.
He's a very nice young buck, and would love for him to be at his full potential. I don't know if there is a supplement we could try, or something we can add to help correct him?
Vitamin E? Copper? Surely he's had enough Selenium? Too much Selenium? Or just the way he is?

Pics from about a week ago -


The older buck in this drive is his sire. For size comparison, the buck in front of him is about 4+ months older.



 
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#3 ·
So are all of the goats in his female family that we've had over the years. It's strange.
I gave him a 2-3 gram copper bolus (took some out of a 4 gram that I had), a little more selenium e gel, and he is currently getting a couple of Vit E gel caps daily per suggestion from a breeder. We're going to put a piece of plywood or stall mat on the goat stand the next time we trim feet as suggested by a good friend, and see if when we trim that helps. I do think the holes that are in the bottom of the goat stand make him stand a bit odd and make it hard to assess his issue.
He's such a nice young buck, growing really well, and has a great personality.
 
#7 ·
Because I live in a HIGH sulpher area, my goats need gobs and gobs of copper and selenium, so that deficiency was my first idea, and my second idea, and my last idea. But if your other goats don't show this, then it is probably not (solely) a copper/selenium need.

I'm not crazy about Manna Pro Minerals. I like Co-op goat minerals and Right Now Onyx minerals better, and so do my goats. Perhaps if he is not eating the one you are giving him, then he isn't getting a certain combination he needs to fully realize the benefits of the copper/selenium/Vit E you've given him???

Whatever is wrong, it seems to be a weakness targeted toward him, particularly. Perhaps consider wethering him to be certain he does not pass on a genetic weakness???

You take such great care of your goats. This is not neglect on your part.
 
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#8 ·
Thanks, he seems a little better. Hopefully with continue work on his feet, and supplements he'll be fine. I'm not sure how much Vit E is safe, so we didn't give him any this morning, I'll give him some tomorrow. I forgot to ask the feed store if he can figure out how much Vit E is in the feed that we're using.
There is no family history of any issues, but I will say his dam had copper deficiency in the late spring, so maybe it is that (she had fishtail).
His sire had a leg doing something similar back in January, we gave him a shot of Bo-Se, and copper bolus, and he improved. This boy has had plenty of selenium, but not sure about Vit E. First copper bolus was days ago. So if he improves it has to be copper or Vit E.
We do need to keep trimming the inside toes (as Pam has suggested to me). He wants to roll under on those outside toes.

He's a really nice boy, no way I'd wether him unless it's found to be a genetic issue. He may not be a show stopping buck, but he has potential to be a nice buck. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel he will get better on his feet with age and proper care & proper hoof care.

As for minerals, I am not a fan of the manna pro, but I've bought about 4 different brands of minerals now and our goats won't touch them. I'm really tired of throwing away $$ :(
 
#10 ·
I've started seeing great improvement in my herd by offering (free choice) one of the 2 kinds of mineral I mentioned, copper sulfate powder, and a 4-1 mixture of Kelp Meal and ground flax seed meal. Improvement especially in the legs.
 
#12 ·
I've definitely considered the Replamin Plus and came close to ordering it! But most of our goats have all recently had Bo-Se or Selenium E Gel as well as adults getting copper bolus, so I was afraid I'd overdose them on it.

As for minerals, we've tried Sweetlix (spelling?) from Bagdad Feed (we use their goat pelleted feed on most of our herd), Southern States, and a couple of other brands and nada. I think the only mineral we ever had luck getting them to eat was a loose cattle mineral, and years ago when we first got into goats we bought some goat minerals from McRay's feed in Harrodsburg. I think they ate the Purina Goat Minerals as well. I've debated ordering the Purina minerals again.

We are on city water, so no worries about sulfur here.
 
#13 ·
Is the land on which your hay is grown, or your pasture, high in sulphur or iron?

I ask, because in my area of KY, the sulphur is in the plants as well, my forage acreage, pasturage, and where my hay is grown (right down the road from us.) is high in those minerals. If I don't keep a constant supply of copper and selenium available, then the deficiency keeps increasing. (My goats are usually on trucked in water from town, too. Our creeks are regularly dry or too stagnant to use, so we haul water from the town water tower.)

As I said, I've always been impressed by your attentive care of your livestock. You'll fix this the best way for you.
 
#14 ·
Thanks so much Mariarose I appreciate your kind comments. We try our best, and every turn there is something new to learn.
I honestly am not sure about mineral/vitamin levels. We do buy local hay from a farmer down the road. I've heard the soil around here is good, but that's all I know. I'll have to request info from our extension office and see if any tests have been done in my area to confirm high or low levels.
I do know we usually don't have any issues with seeing deficiencies except in our red goats. Usually 1 copper bolus takes care of the issue, but I've had to give both the does 2 - 4 gram doses, about a week or two apart before I saw improvement (fishtail/bald tail tips).

This buck's dam had the start of fish tail, but a 4 gram bolus was enough for her. But that sure makes me think copper deficiency is a possibility with this guy since she had it.
 
#16 ·
His outside back toes roll under, so trimming them longer than the inside toe could help bring him up on those outside toes. It did help with the last show when my farrier friend worked on them. It may be hard to tell from the videos I posted but first video was before trim, 2nd was right after trim. I could see a difference in him after the trim, he walked a little more sound, and that hock didn't flex as bad.
 
#17 ·
I thought I would update. My farrier friend worked on his feet over the weekend and it helped a great deal.

He showed yesterday in a large class in an ABGA show and placed 2nd very competitively against a major breeder and a very competitive you buck! It was so exciting that it took the judge a while to decide between them. The buck that won the class went on to be overall Reserve buck, so we're very pleased and proud!
 
#20 ·
Thanks! We still have a little work to do, but my friend has been a huge help. I have trouble with the boys. This guy kicks a lot so it's hard to get a good hold on him, paired with my lousy new trimmers, definitely not what I thought I was getting! Ugh! I need a good, new pair that is dependable!
I have trouble doing his sire's feet as well, so my friend has gotten his feet in great shape. He's got such big, hard feet it's hard for me to get them done. I don't have problems with the does and young goats.

This young guy is growing so well, I'm kind of anxious to weigh him again and see how much he's grown in the last month.
 
#21 ·
My problems with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (acquired at a factory) and arthritis (probably genetic) have worsened to the point that I got an Electric Hoof Knife. It is a tiny grinder. That, and a small pair of horse hoof nippers, is allowing me to keep ahead of major hoof issues. I no longer even bother with regular goat clippers.

Where did your farrier concentrate his/her work to fix your buck's problem, may I ask? I have much to learn about this topic.
 
#22 ·
I need to invest in an electric hoof knife and learn how to use them. I am terrified I will hurt the goats! But I think it would definitely help me a great deal with the ones I have trouble using the hoof trimmers on.

A big part of the problem is the heel. I let the heel's get long, and trimmed too much on the outside hooves, so his feet rolled over on the outside toes. He is a little 'goofy' on the back legs, but the proper trimming has helped considerably. I think some of this is also growth, he has grown so fast. We've never had a buck kid that has grown as fast as he has. He's pretty big. He has really thick front legs, but hasn't quite grown into those back legs. Again JMO.
I'll try to share some photos on here this evening when I have more time to get on line. I just finally had a chance to sort some photos from the show and upload to my flickr page last night.
 
#23 ·
I hear you about those heels. I know lots of people here say you should not have to worry about them much, but I don't think my goats have read those posts!

One problem I'm getting under control is correcting the hooves that have grown sideways from copper deficiency. I've finally figured out how to get enough copper into them, but I'm still working fixing those sideways hooves. Slow but sure they are coming out straight again.

I like the Electric Hoof Knife. I don't know what I'd do without it, honestly. But I'll also tell you it is not a miracle tool. I hate that protective guard, for one thing. No matter what position I put it in, there it is, in the way. I'm positive I hurt myself more trying to work around it than if it was not on there. I told the company how much I hate that part.

Also, those air vents are in the wrong spot for me. To have the control over the grinder I'd like to have, I'd have to put my hand right on those vents. Instead, I have to put my hand farther back, which gives me less control. Again, more injury.

So, I like it, and am very glad I have it, and if it dies I'll definitely replace it...but it ain't perfect by any means.

I look forward to anything else you post here. Hoof trimming, and what it can do, and how, is of great interest for me. I appreciate you letting me follow along.
 
#24 ·
I got a dremel with the little round grinder. It works well on my Nigerian hooves. I had asked about the electric knife and a friend tried her dremel and then suggested it to me. Much more reasonable in price - I do trim the edges of the hoof with my clipper and then sand the heel and any other that needs it.
 
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#25 ·
I've thought about getting the dremel, I think maybe that's what my friends have and not the electric hoof knife.
I still think I would have problems with bucks feet. I do okay with does, and kids. But the big buck is almost 300lbs., and has huge feet, I can barely hold a leg let alone trim his hoof lol.

I almost wonder if some of the issue could be that he is growing so fast? Or at least seems to be growing fast. He'll be 6mo in a week and is right around 150lbs.
We're changing his feed as well, and see if that makes a difference, if so then the show feed we had him on I'll see if they can alter/change it.

I absolutely love this guy, even though he's suddenly a dirty, yucky buck lol!
 
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