Is it too late for Penn G??

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Annieday, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    First - just so thankful for this safe place to come and ask questions and share info, without being scolded or put down etc. there's a lotta goat love flowing through these pages -- and a good dose of human love too❤️

    I have a doe that kidded last March 2017
    She is 4 years old, 4th freshening, Nigerian.
    She had a long pre-hard labor ( about 12 hours)

    Hard Labor started and she was tired already. She was making no progress in pushing - and pushes weren't all that forceful either. No bubble had appeared at all. No water broken.
    After 45 min I gloved, sanitized, lubed up and went looking.

    I found 1 big boy perfect presentation - who came out yowling and standing on his own - with a little pulling...

    I went back in and found another buck perfect presentation again - pulled him very easily.
    He was weak in the legs and took some work ( and selinium gel after ) to get him going.
    Both turned out fine.

    The afterbirth came out right after I got the second boy cleaned up-- but hung on for hours with a 1/4" string going into her vulva.

    I bumped her several times and felt confident there were no more kids.

    I kick myself now - and wish I would have
    1. Gone looking inside again anyway - but with the afterbirth hanging - wasn't sure if I should??
    2. Gone in with syringe of colloidal silver and emptied it inside.
    Well that's all hind sight:(

    So.. She acted very sluggish and was always laying on her kids etc. but no fever. I just figured she was sore from my intrusion.

    .I had the vet out because I wanted to see about getting some Excede for her since I went in 2 times in a hurry and I wasn't all that careful in my panicked condition!:(

    The vet said Biomycin was best and so I gave that instead.

    Since then she still has some discharge between heats. When she goes into heat sometimes it is slighly pinkish. I have seen clear - and white also but just on the vulva part.
    Still no fever - not acting off since she's healed up.

    I have been treating her herbally - and she'll get dry - then discharge starts again ( mid cycle).
    Just recently I got some great advice from Kat at Fir Meadow... I usually depend on her products.

    But she advised uterine boluses and using a weak kid syringe to tube some Herbiotic extract into the uterus.

    But I don't feel comfortable doing that - I'm afraid I'd damage her uterine wall- bladder - who knows??!

    Also, though I love using herbal's only - the cost of that treatment would cost more than I have to spare right now!

    So.... Is it too late to use the brand new cheap Penn G that I found at TSC for under 10.00?
    I had read on some other posts on here - that that was the drug of choice for uterine infections.

    I also saw a post where someone said that uterine infection doesn't have to have a fever also!

    I'm assuming that is what it is - even though there is no temp - milk is fine- and the discharge doesn't smell all that bad--- hahaha well that comes from someone that enjoys the smell of cudding because it means everything is working!!:)

    Discharge smells like Comet cleanser???

    I want to get her ready for November breeding! Thank you for your help!:)
     
    capracreek likes this.
  2. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Hmm discharge smells like Comet? I would get that tested she might have some sort of infection going on unrelated to kidding but I've never experienced this before.
    Others should chime in here soon.

    eta Great job pulling those boys!
     
    capracreek likes this.

  3. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    Duh- just replied to an email - I'm not the fullest bag in the feed room!!:)

    Thank you! I hope others add their advice too.

    Comet might actually smell bad to some people:)

    Thank you - pulling has got to be one of the scariest and rewarding events - when it turns out good!!
     
  4. capracreek

    capracreek Active Member

    281
    Apr 5, 2016
    Missouri
    Annieday welcome to TGS. I have no experience with this so can't help but I am sure you will get some good recommendations. I agree you need to get a handle on it before rebreeding as I know you want a successful outcome. Good luck and keep us posted.
     
    Annieday likes this.
  5. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    Thank You!
     
  6. PippasCubby

    PippasCubby Active Member

    434
    May 13, 2015
    E. WA
    Any chance you can check back in with your vet? Schedule a visit, or call and ask them if/how to bring a swab in to see if it is an infection? I would hate for you to treat something that isn't there, and still not have answers.

    It may also just be you doe. I have one the has random discharge whenever. It is never much, but more than everyone else. She gets bred and kids just fine.
     
    groovyoldlady and Annieday like this.
  7. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    Thank you for answering... I don't have a really good vet that knows goats. The one that checked her at first doubted she had an infection - and said she didn't smell anything but regular lochia smell??

    I wish I COULD take a swab in to a knowledgeable vet!! I gathered my own sample- dropped it off at the vets - and they called later to explain to me that it wasn't a urine sample. ( they obviously weren't listening)

    I don't guess there is a way I could judge whether it's infection with my own microscope? I have one for doing fecals??

    I totally agree - I never want to use antis unless I know it's needed! Besides we need the milk- I'd hate to have to toss it!!

    Thank you for taking the time!

    Can anyone confirm that you can have a uterine infection with no other symptoms besides discharge?


     
  8. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    This may be what is happening, please read.

    UTERINE INFECTION (Metritis):
    Occasionally a doe, if she does not conceive when initially bred, will return to a standing heat a short 7 to 14 days later, instead of waiting for the usual 21 days. Bred again by the owner, the story repeats itself. This is known as 'short-cycling', and it is an indication of a uterine infection (aka ‘metritis’). This infection within the uterus will prevent a conception from taking place. Generally the problem is the result of the owner having had to assist at the previous freshening, in so doing accidentally introducing pathogenic bacteria into the womb. In the two or three weeks immediately following the assisted freshening the owner may overlook a ‘pinkish’ (as opposed to a dark reddish) tinge in the lochia (post-partum discharge), indicating that a uterine infection has set in. After that, however, commonly no further signs will be observed… No temp, no abnormal discharge, milk production is normal… This is because, unlike other mammals such as dogs, horses, et al, the goat has an amazing way of containing the infection within the walls of the uterus itself.
    Because of this potential for post-partum uterine infection during an assisted birthing, I always, immediately at its conclusion, prepare about 7cc of Oxytetracycline LA200, diluted with about 25cc of saline or sterile water, in a 35cc syringe, and infuse that right into the uterine cavity while the cervix is still wide open and accessible. This flushing with diluted oxytetracycline (diluted to prevent irritation of the uterine tissue) prevents any possibility of pathogenic bacteria getting a foothold in the vulnerable uterus, which, if allowed to happen, will result in the doe being unable to become pregnant when she is bred the following breeding season unless or until the infection caused by those bacteria is cleared up. Oxytetracycline, an antibiotic that is accessible and inexpensive, is very effective in treating uterine infections in goats, and it is preferred over penicillin, which is also accessible and inexpensive, but does not have a good track record in this situation.
    I have learned the hard way that this immediate, preventative uterine care following an assisted delivery is the wisest approach. Although it is not impossible to clear up a uterine infection in the Fall, when the doe lets you know by short-cycling that there’s a problem, it is very difficult to do so. You see, during the breeding season she can only be treated when she is at the peak of her standing heat, when the cervix is fully dilated (wide open), to facilitate the entry of semen. And either you, yourself, must be experienced in doing A-I, or you will need to find someone else that is experienced with this process, as well as available (possibly at midnight), to do it for you, because in addition to the likelihood that said peak might actually take place in the middle of the night, the procedure used for flushing an infected uterus with oxytetracycline is the same as for doing an artificial insemination, with the only difference being that instead of infusing a straw full of semen through the doe’s cervix and into the uterus, you will be infusing a 35cc syringe full of diluted LA200 in there. You should be aware that if you permit someone who is not experienced in the A-I process to attempt this procedure on your doe, you risk losing her to your breeding program permanently.

    This is the link to it.
    http://goats.wikifoundry.com/page/Breeding+Problems:+Why+does+don't+'settle'
     
    nancy d, Annieday and Lstein like this.
  9. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    Thank You:) I've read that article many times before...that's why I'm not comfortable doing the flush - don't know anyone who does AI and I don't trust local vets.

    I wish I would have done the immediate syringing after she kidded - but sigh:(

    Is it ever too late for Penn G?
     
  10. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Not sure.

    The only thing you can do is, work with a vet and see what they think, I hate to say.

    But do know, when goats come into heat, they have a a clear discharge, then when they go out, it is white.
     
  11. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    Update and another question! My doe stayed dry for a good while after I wrote - everything looked fine. So she came into heat - which looked normal too - so I bred her.

    2 days later she had a pinkish discharge and wasn't acting as perky.

    Today she is off feed, still cudding, no temp. But she is also laying down a lot and occasionally grinds her teeth and acts like she's pushing!! She has a tiny bit of discharge - but I have found some crusty red on her back end this morning:(

    The article that Toth Boer Goats posted said that infection prevents conception- so she couldn't be aborting could she? She has never acted like she was in pain or gone off feed before. Why would being bred start something new?

    I actually found a vet that will know what to do with a swab! But I can't take it to them until Tues. should I start her on the PennG 2x a day 1cc per 20lbs for 5-7 days as was suggested- starting today- before I get results?

    Does the buck always have to be treated too - if the results show infection? He only mounted her 2xs! Ugh! I know, I should have waited.
     
  12. Damfino

    Damfino Well-Known Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Right behind you
    A bloody abortion can't happen just two days after breeding. I had to abort a couple of our does six weeks after accidental breedings and saw no blood--just some heavier discharge. If you're seeing blood, then I'm pretty sure she still has that uterine infection lurking and it will have to be cleared up before she can breed successfully. I don't know if Pen G will work at this late juncture but it won't hurt to try. If it works, great! If not, you'll probably have to do a uterine flush or bolus.

    If you end up having to do the uterine bolus, you'll want to talk to a vet that is familiar with AI. Probably the best way to do this successfully would be to give the doe Lutalyse to bring her into season and open the cervix. If you use Lute, you'll basically be timing her heat cycle so you have the best chance of bolusing or flushing her while she's open. I wish you all the luck!
     
    Annieday likes this.
  13. PippasCubby

    PippasCubby Active Member

    434
    May 13, 2015
    E. WA
    I would really wait until you have results from the vet. It is only a couple more days wait, and then you know what you are dealing with. Your vet may help you find a more appropriate antibiotic as well.

    Good luck. Let us know what the vet says. I hope you get it figured out!
     
    Annieday likes this.
  14. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    Thank you Damfino for your thoughtful answer. Thats great info I didn’t know- so there is no way she could have conceived if she’s still infected? That would be great. ( I mean that she didnt abort!)

    So if i do that pen G - how will I be absolutely sure the infection is gone? Today she is completely dry- no discharge?

    Could it be another infection - like bladder or uninary tract? Shes peeing ok - good stream- but sqats a little different than normal.

    But i doubt if the vet will be
     
  15. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    That was a post yesterday that i forgot to post!

    You might be right— we had decided to do the Pen G starting this morning - and everything went wrong! ( I hate doing SQ injections anyway)

    Got my injection ready - made my little “tent” and tried 3 times to get the needle in - and it wouldn’t go in!

    I went back to the house threw that one away - got a thinner needle - but it was impossible to pull the plunger out to fill the syringe- Maybe needle too small? Anyway - gave up and decided to wait:)

    In researching how to do the Pen G shot we found sooooo many different views- some said always SQ some said alwats IM ( including the label)

    Some said 1ml per 100 lbs to 1ml to 10 lbs!!

    Obviously we haven’t given many shots in 5 years!

    But I sure prefer IM - but not as much fun for the goat!:(

    What is the correct way and dosage?

    I will definitely update when we get info from the vet!
    Thank You!
     
  16. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    18 gauge needle works. It is tight on the syringe.
    Or you have a lock syringe type.
    Make sure it is new and sharp.

    Pen G is given, 2 x a day, 1cc per 20 lbs SQ, be sure to pull back on the syringe before injecting to check for blood. If you see blood, remove and try another spot.

    I would wait for test results.
     
    Annieday and Goats Rock like this.
  17. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    Thank You - the first one was 18 gauge - just didn’t push hard enough I guess:(

    The second one was 22- so pen was too thick to draw?

    Yes - I sweat till I pull back!:)

    I’m not doing bad when you consider i fainted when I got my ears pierced!:)

    Thank you for adding your advice - and dosage info -more confirmation to wait. She’s doing better today -
     
    toth boer goats likes this.
  18. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    Update- the vet tested the swab - he said there was bacteria - and elevated white blood cell count, but not abnormal for a doe just coming out of heat ( which she was)

    He won’t tell me anything more to do without seeing my Doe ( Ginnie) :(

    She is still off Feed- but eating forage/hay/chaffehay.
    She’s peeing - but still an effort.
    No temp still.
    But back is still hunched ( tail slanted) like she’s in labor:(

    Since the vet won’t give me any recommendations over the phone - should I just start the Pen G?

    I can’t leave Home right now to take her in. Besides taking care of my Mom at home with cancer- I have a doe showing all signs of being on time with her due date!!

    I know I am dragging my feet over the injection. I don’t want to start and not be able to do it! I’m such a whimp:(

    I have been able to give her a dose of banamine every other day - which makes her act almost normal- but then the needle I’m using must be a 30 gauge! ( about as thin as a hair!) easy!

    I know some of ya’ll are given to praying for things- I would appreciate any!! My hubby is doing an overnight route and won’t be here to help if I start Pen G.

    Oh- and my other question was - I want to give her a boost with some b complex - I found the dosage - but haven’t found what size needle to use ! I sure hope it’s 22- that’s all I have besides the dreaded 18 guage!!:(
     
  19. Annieday

    Annieday Active Member

    129
    Jul 10, 2017
    Florida
    Just found I have - 5 - 20 gauge needles! Will that work with Pen G?