Is overbreeding a problem in goats?

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by newtogoats, Oct 1, 2008.

  1. newtogoats

    newtogoats New Member

    71
    Aug 27, 2008
    So here is a question that came up for me. I see these truly beautiful goats with such capacious udders and I wonder, especially on dainty breeds, does it weigh them down, are their frames as they are bred smaller up to the weight of their mammary system? I think of the dog breeds that have breathing problems (like bulldogs), vision problems (like collies), displasia, heart and cancer problems and I wonder if anyone has concerns about overbreeding for what humans think is valuable in an animal. Perhaps these concerns are being addressed already, or there is no need to worry. Can you share you opinions...
     
  2. Sonrise Farm

    Sonrise Farm New Member

    Sep 18, 2008
    Southwick, Idaho
    You know breeding one a year with 5 month gestation, 2 month kid raising time and then basicallly 2 more months off til breeding time, and then breeding time she get's dried off and . . .
    taking a deep breath. I don't think it really bothers my animals. But if I do notice one doe is a little overwelmed after kidding season then i will rest her for the rest of the year and let her go dry.
     

  3. newtogoats

    newtogoats New Member

    71
    Aug 27, 2008
    Just to clarify, what I meant by overbreeding wasn't breeding too often. I was thinking of breeding for characteristics like smaller dwarf or mini-breeds with larger and larger udders. Maybe the emphasis on rumps and legs and such is meant to compensate for this, is that possible?
     
  4. Sonrise Farm

    Sonrise Farm New Member

    Sep 18, 2008
    Southwick, Idaho
    oh. Well, I just got into the Nigerian breed and so I am basically a green horn, so I'll let someone else answer that . . .
    but I've noticed that breeders typically don't really breed for goats under 19", and I have yet to see a great milking doe who's under that height. but that's just me, I could be wrong. :shades:
     
  5. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Very good question "newtogoats"!

    In my honest opinion, the Nigerian Breed has always had the dairy qualities,same as the large breed dairy goats, nothing WE did made them smaller. Some bloodlines have bred the very capacious udders into lines that had better quality legs, rumps etc. to get the awesome combo for a "perfectly" put together goat. Breeders that take the care for the quality of the animals born are smart enough to know when a buckling should be wethered and a doeling should never be bred.

    Pygmy's on the other hand have been "abused" so to speak, the breed standard has been compromised by breeders wanting smaller goats therefore causing problems with the health of the goats. The kids born to smaller than standard does are usually pets as they tend to stay small.

    Both breeds of mini's originated in Africa, and were imported here so many years ago, to my knowledge, the ND hasn't been altered from the "original" and the pygmy's have gotten smaller.

    Hope this answered your question. :greengrin:
     
  6. SDK

    SDK New Member

    Jun 26, 2008
    Yucaipa ca
    i agree with liz
    i have seen some pygmy bucks who can't turn their heads because their necks are so thick and cobby
     
  7. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    And I've seen pygmy does that are so small their knees are only and inch or 2 away from the ankle....cute but "not right".
     
  8. SDK

    SDK New Member

    Jun 26, 2008
    Yucaipa ca
    yea i remember when pygmy's were more proportional.. now its kinda sad
     
  9. newtogoats

    newtogoats New Member

    71
    Aug 27, 2008
    I sure wish I lived closer to some nigerian and/or mini-nubian breeders, there's no substitute for an up close look. I'd really like to see the proportions I've been reading about. I've seen lots of photos of udders up close, which is just what a knowledgable potential buyer needs to see, but I'd like to see the whole goat with udder to get an idea of the proportion of it all, if you know what I mean. I'll just have to make time for a long field trip some day...
     
  10. SDK

    SDK New Member

    Jun 26, 2008
    Yucaipa ca
    where are you located at?
     
  11. newtogoats

    newtogoats New Member

    71
    Aug 27, 2008
    I'm in the northwestern part of the Catskill Mountains, NY. I have several neighbors who are very serious about their dairy goats, mostley LaManchas and Alpines, but none close with Nigerians or minis. A few hours N.E. of me there may be some breeders (up past Albany). I'll just have to commit to taking everyone along on a goat expedition...I have a sister-in-law in Apple Valley, is that near you?
     
  12. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    There is a member here that has nigi's and they are in Albion...is that any closer to you?
     
  13. newtogoats

    newtogoats New Member

    71
    Aug 27, 2008
    Thanks, she and I did have a good talk (write), but she's over 5 hours away. Thank you all for help and insight though.
     
  14. heavenlyhaven

    heavenlyhaven Senior Member

    627
    Apr 16, 2008
    Belmont, NY
    i raise mini nubians but i am in the sw corner of ny in allegany county
     
  15. newtogoats

    newtogoats New Member

    71
    Aug 27, 2008
    Yep, you're 4 1/2 hours away from us, see I've been doing my homework. But you never know...I sure would like to see those mamas and kids!
     
  16. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    I agree entirely with Liz's post. Pygmies have been bred smaller and smaller, cobbier and cobbier, it's difficult to find a doe that can kid easily and still be "show quality". That's the main reason we switched to Nigerian Dwarf goats last summer. We had pygmy does that (for the most part) kidded easily but we couldn't show them because they were not "show quality". Anyways, it's very sad that they've been bred to be that way. It used to be worse though, so the breeders are trying to fix what was done. Big pygmies are winning in the show ring now, that's good.
     
  17. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    I breed standard dairy goats, but I have looked into and studied Nigerians a little. I wouldn't say they are overbreeding(and I assume by this do you mean linebreeding/inbreeding to accentuate traits?) But Nigerian breeders over the past decade or so have really stepped up to the plate to try and breed an animal that is more refined, more dairy, and basically miniature beauties of their bigger cousins. Yes, linebreeding is used to get these consistent qualities, but most of the time if a bad trait starts showing up the breeders are responsible enough to start using other lines etc.

    When you see a Nigerian on a website who has a huge udder, you have to consider how long the breeder uddered that doe up to get her udder to look that nice. A doe's udder should look nice with just 12 hours of milk in it, have them over uddered for extended periods of time really tends to stretch the ligaments out, then their udders dont' stay as tightly attached for as long.

    I want to note that Pygmies and Nigerians were not necessarily 'bred down' to be a smaller goat, in Africa, where they originated, Pygmies were used as meat goats since the small amount of meat they produced could be eaten in time before it was spoiled(since there is no refrigeration) and the same goes for the Nigerians, they produce less, so less goes to waste.
     
  18. Sweet Gum Minis

    Sweet Gum Minis New Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    Easley, SC
    Does with huge capacious well attached udders won't have a problem with carrying it around. Goats who have very poorly attached udders have lots of trouble with them. As they age and as they continue to freshen more and more times their udder fails more and more and finally dangles and can get snagged or torn leading o serious issues.
     
  19. newtogoats

    newtogoats New Member

    71
    Aug 27, 2008
    Ashley, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'll compare it with dogs, since most everyone knows about them, and I know them a little better. People had the idea that collies were more beautiful and refined looking the longer their noses were, now they have lots of vision problems as a result. You can't even ship a pug or bulldog in the summer months because their breathing is so compromised by people over-emphasizing their pushed in-face. Lots of these breeds have high rates of c-section because of their size, bulldogs again have this tendency because people breed for a large head. So I'll have to learn what great attachment looks like in the flesh. I just try to be aware of the balance between people's need from the animal (milk, say), and the animal's need to live a happy, healthy life.