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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hi guys

I need to mix Redmond with treats or they just won't eat it and I use treats to basically move them where I want them to go

I can get pelleted feed that the Japanese farmers give to young cows at a fraction of the price of say mannapro goat treats which is what I was using

Translated details below

Kumiai Mixed Feed Niko Niko Moretto Feeding Calf Breeding, Young Cattle Breeding, Sheep

Crude Protein 19%.

Crude fat 2%

Braided fiber 7%

Coarse ash 7%

Calcium 0.6%

Phosphorous 0.3%

Cereals 59% (Corn, powder, kinako, dextrin residue )

Vegetable oil 29% (soybean meal

Plant algae 6% (bran)

Others 6% (Molasses, calcium carbonate, salt, licorice extract, stevia

Vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12, Vitamin C, Vitamin K3, Iron sulfate, Copper sulfate, Manganese zinc carbonate, Cobalt carbonate, Calcium iodate, Pantothenic acid, Choline, Nicotinic acid, folic acid, biotin, sodium saccharin, flavoring calcium probionate [0.06% as allobionic acid (added from June to September)]

Does this look ok to give them ?
They would go through about a cup full each a day
 

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@CCCSAW He's talking about a salt mix that he recently purchased. In Japan, they don't have the same options that a lot of people here do, but they also don't have the same needs, because they don't have the same soils.

@Drmike I don't see a problem with using that as a treat to move them from place to place, but I also don't see a need to mix it with your salt.

Remember, if they are still getting salt from somewhere else, they will see no reason to go to your new, therefore WRONG AND IMMORAL salt source. You have to remove their normal (ACCUSTOMED AND THEREFORE RIGHTEOUS AND MORAL) salt source for them to go to it.

So, yes, you can use this feed to move them from place to place. It won't replace their salt or minerals.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
The minerals I can get (Redmond) is basically salt. It uses their natural drive for salt as the means to get them to take it. But even if I remove their salt lick block they still don’t take the Redmond. Plus I reason that a goat can not feel like it needs salt and still be low on minerals.

I’ve found If I mix a daily recommended amount of Redmond with a cup of goat treat that contains molasses their natural drive for sweet things encourages them to take it.

This feed has a sweet taste and smell they just can’t get enough of it. It’s also 100th of the price of mannapro here!

Redmond suggests it’s served free choice or a daily recommended amount mixed with feed. I’m basically doing the latter ( but I’m only giving them around 70 percent of the daily recommended amount as they still have access to salt lick)

Just wanted to check the feed I’m using is ok for goats
 

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The feed is OK for goats.
But I disagree with pushing the goat to eat more salt than it needs.

You are a doctor. What would happen if a human were force fed salt? Does it magically disappear with no ill effects? No, it doesn't.

They should only get as much of this mineral (salt) as they need to.
 

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Dr Mike sir
My state sends hundreds of tons of hay to your country. Your country needs the bulk animal food but, apparently doesn't need mineral additives. On any given day during harvest season anyone can contract a semi truck load of hay that was refused due to weed seeds.
The whole process is interesting Japan storage is in the ocean in airtight barrels.
Anyway, trust your goats to know what they need. If they don't want it now, no problem. Maybe offer a couple spoonfuls every couple weeks to see? Keep it cool and dry, it will last forever.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
The feed is OK for goats.
But I disagree with pushing the goat to eat more salt than it needs.

You are a doctor. What would happen if a human were force fed salt? Does it magically disappear with no ill effects? No, it doesn't.

They should only get as much of this mineral (salt) as they need to.
Couple of points

It's common for farmers to add salt mineral to feed.

From the studies i looked at prior to starting this, excess salt (up to a significant point) is not usually a problem with ruminants so long as they have access to enough water. They just increase the volume of urination. For this reason I have been monitoring their water intake before and after feeding this. There has not been any change to date. I am monitoring

I am deliberately feeding them a little less than the recommended amount of mineral mix and critically they still have access to the salt block. If they are getting enough or too much salt from the feed mix they will naturally stop licking the block. They are still licking the block at least once a day this is the control. (Motion activated cam) The salt lick block and the water intake is how I can ensure they are not getting too much salt

If they stop licking the block and or increase urination rate I can adjust

Some good info here -

https://stud.epsilon.slu.se/2898/1/Johansson_a_110622.pdf
 

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They are licking the block because that is what they are used to. If they are used to it, then it is the correct thing to eat (to them). Goats don't reason as we do.

If you take away the other salt, they will turn to the new salt when they need it, and so ingest the extra minerals in them.

Excess of any mineral is a danger to ruminants. This includes salt. Extra digestive organs and cudding don't make excesses disappear.

I think you are making a big mistake by masking the salt by trying to make it sweet. But you are set on this course for some reason.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Dr Mike sir
My state sends hundreds of tons of hay to your country. Your country needs the bulk animal food but, apparently doesn't need mineral additives. On any given day during harvest season anyone can contract a semi truck load of hay that was refused due to weed seeds.
The whole process is interesting Japan storage is in the ocean in airtight barrels.
Anyway, trust your goats to know what they need. If they don't want it now, no problem. Maybe offer a couple spoonfuls every couple weeks to see? Keep it cool and dry, it will last forever.
If I was only feeding them hay you would be correct this would be relevant however their diet is now probably 90 percent forage. As I can not be sure what they are foraging and it's often impossible to determine mineral content in said forage I reasoned that giving them a fixed amount of mineral mix a day (less than recommend amount) is a good way to be assured they are at least getting a supply of basic minerals they need
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
They are licking the block because that is what they are used to. If they are used to it, then it is the correct thing to eat (to them). Goats don't reason as we do.

If you take away the other salt, they will turn to the new salt when they need it, and so ingest the extra minerals in them.

Excess of any mineral is a danger to ruminants. This includes salt. Extra digestive organs and cudding don't make excesses disappear.

I think you are making a big mistake by masking the salt by trying to make it sweet. But you are set on this course for some reason.
I'm guessing you did not take a look at that study I linked titled 'salt to ruminants' take a look at the section on 'Excess' and 'Salt in Feed'

The information in the study and the studies referenced therein contradict your assertions

Again adding salt to feed is a common farming practice

I'm adding less than daily recommended amount

See attached feeding instructions from Redmond. They recommend loose or if mixed in feed to have access to water
 

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Good morning @Drmike ,
I just read the salt study your link pointed to, thank you for posting that.
I am not going to argue points, I am going to try to get your take on some questions.
@goathiker posted that Oregon sends a lot of hay to Japan, does that hay have a higher sodium content than hay from Kansas or Nebraska?

Does the geological age of the earth (ground) where you are have a direct impact on minerals that your goats get from forage?

Does the proximity of sea have a large bearing on the salt in your goats forage?

I ask because down here in Mississippi the soil is called Loess, a soil that was blown in on prehistoric dust storms, that is really deficient in most minerals.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
The Timothy hay I’m feeding them comes from japan not US. It’s grown in Hokkaido but I’m sure like most hays it’s very low in sodium

The alfalfa I’m feeding them source varies depending on what the stockholders have at that time

I don’t live near the sea

I don’t know the exact mineral content of the soil nor forage nor the hay .....which is exactly why I’m giving supplement. My guess is the soil here is high in minerals but until I get some info on that I think it’s best to air on the side of caution

And again I’m giving less than the daily recommended amount.
Richmond advises

If you look at the mineral content in supplements there’s only really one (selenium) which has a small window for overdose.

I developed a spread sheet using eg of typical hay plus the Redmond (no forage) to check that amount of minerals is within recommendations...they are.

I plan on accounting for forage once I have managed to get some numbers but it’s not an easy task
 

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I completely agree with Maria here. Not necessarily saying that you will overdose your goats, not saying that at all. Goats naturally will eat salt on their own. And they eat as much as they feel they need. The directions on a label for how much to feed is a basic amount, and each goat is individualized. The same way that one goat may be copper deficient and eating the same exact diet as another goat who is fine. Companies don’t allow that much difference on their labels, they tell you what is deemed safe, not what is best for your individual goats. So with that, I always say to give free choice access to minerals and salt. Your goat will know what it needs, just as another goat in your herd will need different and there’s no way you will ever know how much they need because you’re not in their silly goat brains. if you have a salt lick, they aren’t going to want the Redmond. Take your block away and only offer the Redmond. After a while you can add the block back in and they will use each as they see fit.

Yes, farmers do add salt to feed but I’ve always disagreed with this. WE DON’T ALWAYS KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR OUR ANIMALS, and as a doctor especially — I’m sure that’s hard to admit. Have some trust, acclimate them to the new stuff and then let them self-regulate, for safety — and for fairness.

Remember, Redmond’s directions for feeding aren’t along with another salt lick, it is supposed to be the sole salt source. If it isn’t, you pose a much greater risk of overdosing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
i find it curious that on one hand you say goats know what they need and they can be trusted to naturally limit their own intake of salt with a salt lick and then on the other hand say if I put any amount of salt in their feed they will suddenly lose all ability to judge for themselves how much salt lick to take ...

You really can’t have it both ways lol

So long as goats are still voluntarily taking salt lick then logically they are not getting too much salt in their feed.

But hey you are all entitled to your opinions.


the Facts though are

1. Osmolarity sensors within the goat, which determines the concentration of dissolved substances in the blood, control the goats desire to consume salt and limit the amount consumed. The ability of these sensors to moderate desire is not affected by the source of the salt


2. I am giving them less than recommend amount in their feed

3. The rest they are free to get from the salt lick and do

4. Salt toxicity in goats is not a concern provided sufficient water is available

But anyway I think this discussion isn’t going anywhere so we should move on
 

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i find it curious that on one hand you say goats know what they need and they can be trusted to naturally limit their own intake of salt with a salt lick and then on the other hand say if I put any amount of salt in their feed they will suddenly lose all ability to judge for themselves how much salt lick to take ...

You really can't have it both ways lol

So long as goats are still voluntarily taking salt lick then logically they are not getting too much salt in their feed.

But hey you are all entitled to your opinions.

the Facts though are

1. Osmolarity sensors within the goat, which determines the concentration of dissolved substances in the blood, control the goats desire to consume salt and limit the amount consumed. The ability of these sensors to moderate desire is not affected by the source of the salt

2. I am giving them less than recommend amount in their feed

3. The rest they are free to get from the salt lick and do

4. Salt toxicity in goats is not a concern provided sufficient water is available

But anyway I think this discussion isn't going anywhere so we should move on
I agree, it won't go anywhere. May I ask what the problem is with simply offering it free choice? I know your goats aren't severely deficient, and I also know they have a salt source which they do indeed use. So why is there such a focus on adding Redmond to their feed?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I agree, it won't go anywhere. May I ask what the problem is with simply offering it free choice? I know your goats aren't severely deficient, and I also know they have a salt source which they do indeed use. So why is there such a focus on adding Redmond to their feed?
Redmond quickly turns into horrible brown sludge (I live in a humid forest) and the goats just won't touch it even when I take their salt lick away. Of course I would give it to them free choice if that was an option

The main reason I'm giving it to them at all is to give them copper. Based on my spreadsheet (and assumptions of soil analysis) they need more supplement Cu than they can get from the salt lick I have. The only salt lick I can get here is for sheep and has practically no copper. If I can get a copper rich salt lick I can stop giving them Redmond completely.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
By the way I have bought a soil analysis plus a well water analysis kit so I should have a very good idea of mineral content soon - which will be great.

What complicates things is ......I live 16km away from the most active volcano in japan (there was a small eruption just last week). The soil here is very immature. So it’s not clear exactly what’s going on. Still the analysis should clarify things nicely


This was literally the view from my bedroom window
 

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I , for one would really be interested in your soil analysis. Just for the knowledge, unusable as it will be, for me. I'm funny that way.lol
 
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