Just brainstorming about CL......(Added Pics)

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Perfect7, May 13, 2010.

  1. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    I forgot to mention before that I am also a big nerd and love to research. I've learned that the bacteria that causes CL in goats, Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, is sensitive to penicillin and can be killed easily by this antibiotic. The problem, it seems, is that the bacteria becomes encapsulated so that penicillin given by traditional methods (IM, SQ, and orally) cannot reach the bacteria to kill it. For years, the medical community has injected penicillin directly into boils and absesses for precisely this reason....to kill the bacteria that otherwise cannot be reached. :chin:
    I'm just saying, not that I would be willing to try this and report my observations. :wink:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 3-0100.pdf

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1772501/
     
  2. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    IF it worked and I had a goat with CL, I would more than happy to try it. The problem comes when they have internal lumps. These are lumps you can't see so the pen can't be injected. Possibly a blood test will show the presence of CL in the blood, you could then give high doses of pen in hopes that none of the lumps are walled off so it can do its job.

    This is one case where I would also be more than happy to report my findings. This could help many goat owners who find themselves with a CL positive goat.
     

  3. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    I did find an article where a veterinarian used the direct injection of penicillin into the cl absess on a horse (same thing known as pigeon fever in horses). The absess shrunk away without ever needing to be lanced (ie....never contagious?) When found in humans, they treat with antibiotic erythromycin and the absesses never return. :chin:

    http://www.ushorsetrainer.com/forum/%5B ... geon-fever

    It cannot hurt, less dangerous than formalin I would think to both the goat and the handler, and much easier to obtain. Will post if I take that on.
     
  4. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    Since the cyst is walled off I wonder if that might lessen the possibility of an allergic reaction to Pen. In the article you posted it says the bacteria is sensitive to pen and vancomycin but resistant to erythromycin. Next time I see the vet I might pose this question to him.
     
  5. MiGoat

    MiGoat New Member

    304
    Apr 21, 2010
    West Michigan
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    I too was wondering about injecting something into the cyst other than formalin. I thought 35% food grade H2O2 diluted down to about 3 percent would be interesting, as it's an oxidant and kills bugs by oxidizing...since this particular bacteria walls itself off in an anaerobic cyst it seems in theory at least it would work. Then I thought of colloidal silver. This is fascinating to me.

    Perfect7 I think the formalin is easy to get online...or at an aquarium shop. Don't know if it's the correct grade though as I haven't looked into it that far.
     
  6. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    That's another good idea to try! I'm going to try the pen when I get home in a few because the absess was bigger this am. I know it isn't a cure, but if the pen helps the body overcome it and then it shrinks to where the white blood cells destroy the rest, her body may develop natural immunity to prevent further outbreaks. I will give her nutri-drench while treating to boost her immune system. Also, if anybody ever needs a local anesthetic, the bandaid brand liquid wash for wounds contains 2 percent lidocaine (walmart). I've used this multiple times with great success for friends who wanted their belly button pierced. ;-). Oh, and I have a big vial of 1:1000 epi on hand for potential anaphylaxis to the pen.
     
  7. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    The epi is a must have when doing any injectibles, great that you do have it on hand. Also, get a tube of Probiotic paste, antibiotics mess with the rumen bacteria too.
     
  8. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    Thank you, Liz. I will pick up some probiotic paste for sure. All went well with the first injection of 1cc pen g directly into the absess. It was not easy with as tough as it was encapsulated and I had to push with an 18 g needle instead of a 20. I also made the injection from the top of the area facing down so nothing would leak out. So far, so good! I stayed with her for 20 minutes to make sure there wouldn't be an allergic reaction. She was such a good sport and licked my cheek when I was done (had to sanitize that right away!) I will report the progress in the morning, but I have a good feeling about it. :leap:
     
  9. countrymom

    countrymom New Member

    33
    Apr 1, 2010
    versailles, MO
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    That sounds really good. I'm really excited to here how the Pen G works. I'm really hoping it kills it....... That would be way too cool..
     
  10. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    Stardate log, Day 1. Well, today the absess doesn't look any different but it feels different when I touch it. It feels "less full", smaller, and more solid instead of a tight water balloon. It's almost like there's an absess within an absess, if that makes sense. There's the swollen portion visible to the eye that feels almost hollow with a smaller, jelly-bean size harder area inside of that. Yesterday it was all water balloon feeling. I guess I should add that I had to switch to a lueur lock syringe as well because it was so hard to push with a regular syringe that the syringe blew off the needle. I had to start over. Uhg!
    Karma is also feeling quite energentic today, running as fast as she could to breakfast. :) That started after the nutri-drench yesterday.
     
  11. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    I usually use a 16 GA needle to give antibiotics as they are kinda thick. Luer Lock syringes are much better for giving shots as there is no chance of the goat moving and pulling it off or as you said the meds blowing it off.
     
  12. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Re: Just brainstorming about CL......

    I agree, Crocee. I just wanted to use the smallest possible needle in this case to try to prevent any of the contagious gunk from leaking out. Tonight, I was unable to inject any more Pen at all because the entire encapsulated area has become rigid! :clap: This seems consistent with what happens with Formalin injections. Also, the two smaller cysts areas above the main area are gone! Now it's just a wait and see, but I expect it to shrink completely away. Here are before Pen and after Pen pics. Let me know what you think! (The wet look in the after is where I used betadine prior to and after trying to inject more Pen tonight).
     
  13. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    I think I see a difference.
     
  14. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Looks much better.... :clap:
     
  15. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    :ROFL: My husband said he thought it looked smaller in the "before" picture. I guess there isn't a big visible difference, but it feels much different. No change today in the size at all but it remains hard and solid. Also, the skin seems to slide now over the bump instead of the bump being affixed to the skin. I expect a week will be needed to see anything dramatic.
     
  16. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Just wanted to update in case anyone searches this thread later that Karma does not have CL. Her blood results came back as a weak positive of 4, which they said indicates prior exposure or vaccination but not high enough to be infected with absesses.
    But, the absess has now diminished to 1/3 of the size, remains hard, and is barely visible. Had it been CL, I still think this would have worked quite well. We may never know..... :chin:
     
  17. MiGoat

    MiGoat New Member

    304
    Apr 21, 2010
    West Michigan
    Congrats my dear!! Are you going to give her more pen? Did you give ivermectin in case it's lice or mite bites?
     
  18. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Congrats! I am glad that your aren't having to deal with CL. Scary when you think it is CL! I was terrified when I thought we had CL, and we are dealing with most likely mites! WHEW.
     
  19. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    I'm not giving her any more Pen directly into the absess,though I had planned to if it started to soften up or get bigger. It never did, so it was just that one injection of 1cc. It just keeps shrinking smaller and smaller while remaining firm (think raisin versus the grape it was before). I wormed her with Ivermec after she came here (about a month ago now) and then again 10 days later. Also dusted her twice now with sevin dust.
    And hoosiershadow, from what I read about the mites after seeing your post, it sure does sound like that's exactly what it is! Glad your girl is feeling better, she is sure pretty.
    I'm really glad it isn't CL :clap: , but if it had been that would have been okay, too. I was so sure the pen would have worked and the results could have helped others. She has certainly lived up to her name "Karma Lucky Break".
     
  20. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I am so happy... that it wasn't CL..... congrats... :clap: :hi5: :cool: :greengrin: :hug: