Kidding Assistance & Complications Stories Thread (for educational purposes!)

Discussion in 'Kidding Koral' started by NigerianDwarfOwner707, Oct 21, 2020.

  1. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    Bleeding, shock, energy, weak kids.
     
  2. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    :imsorry: I know some kidding issues are so horrible and hard to talk about. :(
     
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  3. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    :( Very, but any lessons that can help others I am so grateful to have shared.
     
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  4. Sfgwife

    Sfgwife Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2018
    North Cakalaki

    I am just trying to wrap my head around WHY you want people to relive some of the worst moments they have had with their livestock. It is bad enough the first and hundredth time you run through it in your mind. But to dredge it all up again by this post.... i am just not understanding why you would consider wanting to do this to others.
     
  5. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    Not a single person has to share if they aren’t interested.

    Perhaps I named this thread wrong, but what I am really looking for is hearing about lessons learned, mistakes that some have had to make to grow, etc. and this thread has already been widely helpful.

    If you have a problem with it don’t participate.

    I hope everyone who has contributed does not feel pressured to do so, and wishes to share stories to help others.

    If a moderator feels this post goes against community guidelines, I trust something would be done.

    Thank you for your concerns.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
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  6. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I’ve gone ahead and renamed the thread and edited my message to ensure my point got across, and to not trigger another member.
     
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  7. Moers kiko boars

    Moers kiko boars Well-Known Member

    Apr 22, 2018
    Oklahoma
    My question is..why do you want to know this information if you only have 2 wethers? Is this information for your blog? What's the reason for this? Who's education?
     
  8. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    Mine. I have a good friend who purchased some breeding goats, I’ve worked closely with her advising and mentoring with her pets, and now that she will have kiddings I feel responsible to continue my education on the more complicated side of kiddings. I’ve worked with larger herds, mind you - I only own wethers personally, but I’ve managed others. Almost all kiddings I have been involved in, as I said above, have gone smoothly (because there haven’t been too many!)

    I do not have ulterior motives. I do not steal information for my blog, I blog based on things that I have experienced.

    As a goat owner, whether I have males, females, Nigerians, Nubians, boers, I enjoy learning about all topics and I love to absorb all info like a sponge! It fulfills me.

    Please do not ask someone why they wish to learn, there’s nothing better in this word than learning new things.
     
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  9. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    @Moers Kiko Boers, though I do not need to explain myself to you, I will be (hopefully!) purchasing property soon with more room for a full herd. With that will come kiddings.

    I still do not understand why I need to justify educating myself.
     
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  10. Moers kiko boars

    Moers kiko boars Well-Known Member

    Apr 22, 2018
    Oklahoma
    I have NO PROBLEMS with learning. But why don't you have your friends join TGS? ITS free and their are alot of great ideas on here. Maybe they could have options and make there own choices?
    I thought TGS was people sharing THEIR experiences and knowledge from their personal experiences. Is that correct?
     
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  11. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I have actually recommended it to her, I recommend TGS to nearly every goat owner I meet! I recommend it on Facebook groups, in conversation, to vets, to friends, to local farmers, and even to people who have reached out to me for advice on my blog.

    Thought it was a nice opportunity to educate myself as well, if you read my most recent post above you’ll see why.
     
  12. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    I just want to shut this down because I see even I am not following the rules to keep it friendly and fun.

    We’re all here to learn. There are things I don’t know, there’s things you don’t know, and we’ve met in the middle on this wonderful site to fill in the blanks!!

    Have a wonderful night, no hard feelings, I think this was just a misunderstanding and I apologize if anyone was offended by the topic.
     
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  13. AndersonRanch

    AndersonRanch Well-Known Member

    110
    Oct 17, 2020
    California
    I admit I wasn’t getting it either and I don’t have anything against you WHAT SO EVER! Most kidding issues are honestly a fluke. The most common being tangled up kids, or kids being in the dumbest position they could be in. That’s not something that one can prevent, and we all know what in theory needs to be done. Of course knowing and actually doing is two totally different things.
    But speaking for myself and maybe by the sounds of it others too a lot of times bad kiddings end in death and I have had my heart totally ripped out over those. Ideally I know it wasn’t my fault, but I still feel like I failed them. So I think that’s why this is kinda a touchy subject for some.
    But to add to this other then my fast crap happens I think the best advise I ever had was when I was told that kid NEEDS to come out or they are all dead. I know a lot of times I have to remind myself this, not that I was giving up and going to leave a doe with a kid in her but that I need to get a bit more aggressive and get that sucker out by any means if easy is just not doing it.
     
  14. NigerianDwarfOwner707

    NigerianDwarfOwner707 Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2018
    East Coast, USA
    Thank you, I do apologize again if the thread’s goal was confusing or saddening to some. One hundred percent not my intention!
     
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  15. Calistar

    Calistar Well-Known Member

    I don't understand the animosity. As with any other thread, you are free not to read and/or participate if the topic doesn't appeal to you. I also don't understand the demand for the OP to justify why they started the thread or the implication that they're not entitled to based on the sex of the goats currently in their possession...?

    Either way, I am very fortunate to not have had any truly terrible kiddings. But that is ONLY because I have a very good, very experienced mentor with lots of experience very close by! I have had stuck kids and I have lost kids, and I have had stressful kiddings. I have never lost a doe but I know one of these days it's bound to happen. My biggest problem is that I've so far never been able to help! I'm not unwilling, just unskilled! If I think a doe is in trouble and I try to go in to reposition the kid, I never get past my knuckles! Between the kid trying to come out and the doe trying to push me out, I just don't know how to proceed, how gentle I have to be, how much room I can make, etc! Everyone always says "go in," but the going in is the hard part! My last kidding this year was a FF who started kidding in the middle of the night. She was pushing and not getting anywhere, with just the tips of the hooves out. I thought I was dealing with a kid who was upside down and backwards. I tried to push that kid back in to reposition it but it wasn't moving, and the doe didn't stop trying to push it/me out. I stopped for a minute to breathe, think over my options, wonder whether I could/should try to get the neighbor, and tried to get my panicking under control...and while I was getting myself together, she pushed the kid out on her own. It was neither upside down nor backwards. Ugh. Every year I think I understand things better and that I'll be able to do it next time, and every time I'm put to the test I fail! I have a doe due next month and she is absolutely enormous and carrying quads at least, maybe quints. I'm hoping and praying that things go smoothly and I won't have to intervene with her!
     
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  16. mariella

    mariella Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2017
    Prague Oklahoma
    If my shearing can help someone save a doe or babies or both then I'm more than happy to relive everything. I was helping a friend with a stuck kid and had to relive every birth ever so I don't see any harm in telling people about it. My upbringing was rocky (as a lot of people's are) and I came away with a perspective of, its in the past and I learned something now how can I help someone learn from my past?
     
  17. KJgoats

    KJgoats Member

    26
    Oct 20, 2020
    Delaware
    I agree, if one person's stories about kiddings they've helped with in the past and how they assisted the doe will help just 1 other person later that is a great thing. I know it is a touchy subject and when I was writing my previous post I honestly cried writing it. I learned so much from that first kidding and if my story or anyone else's story will later help a fellow goat lover to save their doe or baby that would be amazing. If you see a feed that you know may upset you just dont read it, simple as that. A lot of people may benefit from learning about experiences like these. I may have been able to save my doe or at least helped more if I had know how to. And some of this information may have given me the knowledge to do so. Please do not harp on the creator for this feed about something she did not intend to be taken out of context if she had good intentions.
     
  18. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    OK everyone, there is no need to pick on NigerianDwarfOwner707.

    I see no problem with the thread.
    It can be a sensitive subject to some.
    If you do not feel it is appropriate then do not write to it.

    We all have had bad experiences at one time or another, we need to share them with others, so we may help others in those situations.

    Of course the thread had a name change since I had first posted, so I didn't go into detail of head back situation.

    It really is OK to share your experiences, only if you have the heart to do so. If not, move on to a different thread.

    Keep it friendly, keep it fun.
     
  19. Damfino

    Damfino Well-Known Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Right behind you
    Here's one I posted in 2017...

    I'm digging up this thread because we had a nasty case of head back yesterday. A big two-year-old first freshener was a week overdue and labor wasn't progressing much after the water broke. We saw the amniotic bubble start to come, but then it disappeared, never to return. Instead there was a lot of fluid. The sac had broken inside. I went for an exploratory exam and unexpectedly found the doe only partially dilated. I could barely get my fingers inside past the middle joint, never mind my knuckles! I waited about 20 minutes in hopes she would dilate a little more as she contracted. This time I was able to get my hand in, but just barely. She was very, very tight, and the only thing I could feel was a hairy shoulder. There was no head and no legs. I was able to reach down and retrieve the legs, but the head eluded me. The kid had a very long neck and the head was so far back it had to be almost touching the tail. And that doe would not dilate enough for me to force my way in any further! She was very strong and pushing hard, which didn't help.

    After I'd been trying about fifteen minutes my vet friend who is boarding horses at my place just happened to show up and of course I flagged her down. First thing she taught me--keep the doe up with a straw bale! Brilliant idea! My husband and my father-in-law had been bracing that goat up with sheer strength, but the straw bale took the weight so all they had to do was keep her on it (easier said than done a few times, but still better than trying to support her!).

    Unfortunately we did not have a happy ending. The vet and I took turns working away for well over an hour and neither of us could get much luck. I had gotten the kid's head turned toward me by hooking his lower jaw with my fingers, but then he got stuck that way with his neck facing away and his nose pointing back at us in a very kinked position. The top of the head was now out of reach and the jaw too slippery to grasp. And there simply was no room in that doe! The vet had even less luck than me because her hands were slightly bigger and she had a hard time using her left, which in this case was required. We tag-teamed each other as our arms grew numb, but after about the third or fourth try our vet gave up and said we needed to take her to the clinic for an emergency c-section.

    I decided to try one last time. I lubed up (because by now things were getting pretty dry in there), and I was able to push the feet completely back in. We had both tried this earlier, but Tigerlily was pushing so hard we couldn't get the feet to retract enough, and she was so tight we couldn't get the head into the passage with both our hands and the feet in there. It was a mess. By the time I gave it my last try, Tigerlily was so exhausted she'd stopped pushing. She had also dilated just a little more. It was enough. I was finally able to get the feet out of the way and bring that head around. Once the head was out, I was able to go back in for a leg and he came away. Unfortunately, he was gone by then and we weren't able to revive him.

    But I learned a couple of things. First, use a straw or hay bale to keep that goat up! Second, find the head (or tail) first! Don't bring the legs out until you know where the head is because you may need the room, and once those legs are out they may not go back in. Of course, this won't do any good if the legs are already out before you help the doe, but in this case I think I would have been much better off if I'd left those legs curled under out of the way while I reached in for the head. Once the head is in place it's usually not hard to find a leg. The opposite cannot be said!

    I'd been hoping for a buckling, and he sure was a pretty one. I'm very sad we lost him, but I'm grateful for lessons learned. I'm also grateful that our doe is ok and didn't need a c-section after all. I had high hopes for this little lady. This was our most-anticipated kidding of the year, and I'm sad it turned out this way. I don't know why she didn't dilate properly. She's a big doe and she looks wide enough. She's had a very healthy, active pregnancy and from the looks of things she should have had no trouble. The kid was super long, but not overly wide. This should have been much easier than it turned out.
     
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  20. Damfino

    Damfino Well-Known Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Right behind you
    Not long after the incident above, one of my friend's goats went into labor. It was a Nigerian Dwarf doe and she had a huge single kid with its head back. This baby's head wasn't as far back as Tigerlily's and the kid was definitely alive when we started trying to reposition it so I thought it would be a good outcome, but sadly it turned out not to be. I realized with this second head-back presentation that I really needed a kid puller in my kidding box. Trying to thread a flimsy piece of baling twine around a lower jaw or head is just about impossible. It's not stiff enough and the target is always just beyond the reach of your fingers (because if you could reach your fingers just a little bit further you probably wouldn't need the twine!). My friend and I worked on that doe for a very long time before we had to give up. She called a vet who ended up pulling the kid out but of course it was long gone by then. Unfortunately the vet had to be quite aggressive to get that kid out and the doe's uterus tore. She died a few days later.

    The lesson here was to always, always have a kid puller handy. I'm sure we could have snared that head if we'd had the right tool. Also, once again, look for the head FIRST instead of fishing out the legs. My friend had already pulled the legs out when I got there and I couldn't get them back in. With this type of presentation the head is simply too far away to be able to reach it when the feet are clogging up the passage. I've delivered a few head-first kids and it's very easy to reach under the neck and find the feet. The same can't be said for bringing the head forward when the feet are in the way.
     
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