Life in the CAE Lane

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by Nupine, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. Nupine

    Nupine New Member

    329
    Nov 13, 2007
    South Eastern Ohio
    Simon and Nellie. Simon is a grade nubian wether with very poor confirmation. Nellie is a reg. nubian doe with very good confirmation. What do these two goats have in common? Both tested positive for CAE. As many of you may know we recently tested our 8 goats, it never crossed my mind that one of our goats could have it. But two have it. Both goats are very special to me in different ways. Simon, who I have had since September 2006, is like the brother I never had. We saved him from a sale barn when he was two weaks old. He came from ''bad'' owners and was in very poor shape. Now he is in great shape and is adorable. He loves me so much. I had plans on having him till he was 30 or 40. Now those plans may be shattered. Nellie is the start and star of our Nubian herd. I have had her since January 06, 2007. With her Hoanbu and Kismet bloodlines, I had plans on showing her in any show possible. She is almost 3. [In case you haven't noticed, both goats came from sale barns.] But why me? I am the one who went to an ''only cares about her herd'' goat barn super at fair and told her that I was woried because it looked like another goat had foot rot [turns out it was a broken leg, which is still bad]. I am the one who cleans her barn every day. I am the one who has tons of plans for her herd, from what feeder I need, to what buck I will buy. I am the one who spends her school time on the goat spot to learn everything I can about Caprines. I am the one has every goat book in the world and will read Hoegger catalogs for days. And at times, I am the one who loves her goats more than people. Yet it isn't always as perfect as it seems. I am the one with a nice alpine who has never kidded yet has a ''mastitic'' udder the size of a good milker. Her show career is probably ruined. With a vets ok, we recently had her bred. It may cure her mastitis, or it could kill her. ''Do or Die'' with Hannah. I am the one who's doe Nellie aborted over a month before she was due. The kid ripped in pieces and and came out backwards. We had to have a friend help. It was our first kidding experiance. It could have killed her and she was very upset. [Yet if she would have went full term and delivered a live kid, we wouldn't have known she had CAE and she would have passed it to her kid, sometimes God does things for a reason.] I am the one whose two new goats ran away last March and we haven't seen them since. One was days old. We only had them home for about 10 minutes when they broke out. And now, I am the one with 1/4 her herd infected with CAE. Enough gibbering, what should I do? Nellie is bred and due in March. The vet said she should be seperated during lactation. 10 months by herself, I don't think so. As long as I throw away his needles, Simon can stay with the herd, the vet said. Simon is very special to me, is there anything I can do for him? I read about CAE and it says 90% of the goats who have it live there full life with out showing any signs. That makes me feel a little better about Simon. I once saw a goat at a friends with very acute CAE, it was awful. I don't want that to happen to either of them, espeically Simon. It is like finding out your brother has incurable cancer for me. What should I do?
     
  2. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    First off I am sorry for you that you are having all these struggles BUT I wouldn't give up - doesn't sound like you are a quitter anyway.

    As for Simon - well unless he shows great signs of discomfort I would let him live his life out to the fullest with you. He sounds like a great friend and you need that.

    As to your Nellie. Why not pull the kids and raise them on replacer? The milk won't hurt you so you can drink it OR you can just pasterize it and feed it to the kids.

    I would also, if you have the money, retest those two just to be sure. Sent it to another lab. Just like in cancer (since you used that correlation) you need to get second oppions before you dive into treatment.

    Good luck girl - you can do this.
     

  3. enjoytheride

    enjoytheride New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Humboldt Co Ca
    Can you maintain two seperate herds? If so can you seperate Simon and Nellie into their own herd? It sounds awful but since you do have two, they would have company.

    I have never had CAE so I can't really suggest things for that except that the babies could be pulled (at least the doelings) and bottle raised so that their chances of getting it would be very low. Then no matter what Nellie's future is, she will live on in her girls.

    I know what it is like to try to cope with such unhappiness as I had a goat with very, very bad CL and it went from bad to worse. It was hard on the goat and on me. I'm so sorry that you have to have this problem too.
     
  4. Nupine

    Nupine New Member

    329
    Nov 13, 2007
    South Eastern Ohio
    Thanks! I do't think I can have two herds. We are low on space as it is. The goats have a very nice barn and pasture. The only other usable spot is where I was planing on keeping a buck. Simon doesn't concern me when it comes to transferring it to other goats. Yes, we are going to bottlefeed her kids. But, we have other does due. Do you think they would nurse her? We have a spot to put kids, do you think it would be worth it to pull all kids and bottle feed ALL of them. That would be about 10 kids. Also, I went to Fias Co Farms and it said that immune boosters may help prevent positive goats from actually getting the disease, anyone heard of that? I would be interested.
     
  5. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I doubt the kids will try to nurse her since if they are not her kids she will butt them away. Very rarely does a doe allow a kid that is not hers to nurse freely.
     
  6. jBlaze

    jBlaze New Member

    254
    Oct 9, 2007
    Oregon
    It is possible for CAE to be transmitted from infected saliva or feces I have heard, so your wether could pass it along, less likely, but certainly possible. What are your plans for the positive doe is what you need to figure out. Tough decision for sure. If you are going to keep her, are you going to risk the rest of the herd, or are you going to maintain two herds. If you would sell her, you can seperate her and the wether from the herd, wait till she kids, snatch her babies, then sell her and raise the kids on negative or pasturized milk. Of course you still need to decide what to do with the wether, he is perfect company for her.
    I would definetly re-test the whole herd later, to see if they did get it, but was too early to show up yet. Espically any does due to kid.
    CAE so totally sucks, I know. I have similar problem. I have maintained the positives with great genetics in a seperate area for more than 6 months, and when the doe kids, I will keep the babies and sell the others. Even though I have two does due to kid ahead of her I have frozen negative colustrum in case.
    And then if you show, your show animals just may get it at the shows for sure. The whole thing is just rotten! In order to market your animals, you have to proove them at shows, and be able to say no CAE, but they get it at the shows, but sure hard to do both! Grrrr. And then you get the folks who have strange philosophies about it and how it is or is not transmitted and those that lie about tests. And then you have the kids raised on pasturized milk that will test positive for the antibodies but don't actually have it, because the antibodies last through pasturization, but the virus does not. Grrrr. :veryangry: :veryangry: :hair: :sigh: :veryangry:
    Yes, I feel your frustration, and have not found a suitable answer myself. sorry to rant on and on.
     
  7. Nupine

    Nupine New Member

    329
    Nov 13, 2007
    South Eastern Ohio
    Thanks, but I am certainly not selling her. That is completly out of the question. There is only one place she would go and we all know where that is. I am mostly worried about the kids, hers and everyone elses. Both goats have been in our herd for over a year, so what is the chance they would pass it on now? Before I knew she had it, I went to see if she had milk when she aborted. I milked out a little colustrum in the pen, nothing happened. The chances of that happening are slim enough to say it isn't going to happen. If it does, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
     
  8. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    I am very sorry this has happened, my sympathy. Like Stacey said, you could try sending blood samples off to a different lab and see what you get. Can I ask what lab did you send these samples to?

    CAE is such a touchy subject and I don't like to talk about it a lot. But from talking to breeders, I get two different drifts. Some say CAE is the most horrible thing in the world, others say that if you manage it well CAE is not as bad as it seems. Personally, I agree with the latter. I talked to a breeder who had goats for almost 20 years and had a well known herd(she sold out last year due to health issues) She said that she all of her goats tested negative year after year, even though she had 3 positive goats in with them. She milked the 3 positive ones last and threw their milk away and kept them in the same pen with the negatives. year after year no negatives came up positive. I talked to another breeder that said that they sent 3 samples from the same goat off to 3 different labs and never got the same answers back. That breeder also told me she sent 2 samples from each goat to the same lab, marked one with a number and the other sample with a name. Numbered samples came back positive and named samples came back negative. Kids that have been raised on pasturized milk from a positive CAE dam will still test positive even though they don't have it because they are carrying dead anti bodies in them.

    My honest opinion about CAE? If they aren't showing any outward signs and are not in any pain or suffering, and are of some value to your herd, they should be left to live, pull their kids and raise them on milk from a negative dam. Now, if they show the symptoms of hard udders, chronic, incureable pneumonia, encephalitis or chronic painful arthritis, I would put them down.

    I would recommend testing your goats yearly for CAE since you have had two pop up positive. For your Nellie, I would recommend pulling her kids at birth, don't even let her see them, and raise them on milk from a negative dam.

    That is just my view on CAE.
     
  9. ozarksvalley

    ozarksvalley New Member

    180
    Nov 22, 2007
    Missouri
    I totally agree with Sarah. CAE, imo, is not the end of the world. I have heard of goats that tested positive living to ripe old ages without a whole lot of pain. If they are in pain, there are products designed to help with it. Fir Meadows is one place that sells herbal stuff like this.

    http://firmeadowherbs.tripod.com/

    Of course, you can't do this now since she is bred, but you could've given the herb, Sage, to your doe with the precocious udder. I am assuming that you milked her since her udder is so big? Her hormones have obviously went wild- a thing which could have been fixed. I had a doe with a precocious udder- I fixed the problem with research and TLC. I know you went to the vet- but please remember alot of vets claim they know it all but don't, and I have not found one yet that even tries to think of the natural way to do things. Alot of the chemicals available today CAUSE the problems, not fix them. Grains are also pumped full of hormones and junk, no wonder our animals' diseases are increasing with us people's.
    I would not have resigned myself to getting a doe bred and saying, either she dies or she doesn't. I'm sorry, but that does not seem like loving a goat more than a person.

    It sounds to me like you need to do some herb and natural research. Many of the problems you have listed with your goats could have been prevented. Humans and animals both were created with systems that fix themselves- providing they are not deficient in anything or some toxic substance has invaded their body.
    I also suggest that you stop thinking about all you have done for your herd, and start thinking on the brighter side about what you still CAN do. And stop thinking, why did it happen, and start thinking about what you can do about it.

    I am not in any way saying you are not doing a good job- you are doing your best I am sure because you love your goats. All I am saying is that having goats is a learning process, we all learn from it. Just always try to learn more, I know you said you do that but there is obviosly a problem somewhere if so many of your goats are having problems that would not be classified, in my opinion, as trivial.
     
  10. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    Honestly i wouldn't give up yet. You said you can'y house two seperate herds but all you need is another small pen at least ten feet away from the other pen. Build them a little lean to and thats enough space between two herds. I kept a positive buck several years ago, he was only two and didn;t show signs of the disease. His mother was a first place doe at the nationals. I wanted more kids out of him. When i bred them i was carful that he never peed directly on them and they never butted heads. When i sold the buck he went to the sale barn my does and all of my bucks offspring are still testing negative. I know a few top show herds that keep positive bucks because they don't want to lose the bloodline. As for the doe just make sure you pull her kids and either give them milk and colostrum from negative animals or heat treated colostrum and pasturized milk.
    Goats only live about twelve to fifteen years, some live a little longer. Bucks and whethers tend to not live quite as long (at least in the dairy breeds) they can have a full happy life living with CAE, depending on what type it has. I know a lady that has a positive doe who is going on eleven, she is finally starting to show her srthritis this year, having swollen joints and having a harder time getting up and down, but she is still eating happy and wants love.
    I think the most commen way sis transmitted is through milk and blood. Butting heads from one positive to one negative can transmit it. I have heard drinking out of the same water bucket can do the same thing, but i don't know if thats true or not.
    i hope this helps a little.
    beth
     
  11. redneck_acres

    redneck_acres New Member

    Oct 17, 2007
    Idaho
    Most people i've heard from about it say that that the bucks and does would really have to draw quite a bit of blood from head butting in order to spread on CAE. However, i'm certainly no expert on it. I also hear that it is most commonly spread from infected blood rather than Saliva-but like I say that is only what i've heard.
     
  12. Nupine

    Nupine New Member

    329
    Nov 13, 2007
    South Eastern Ohio
    Thanks everyone. I am still not sure what to do exactly but here are my plans. The two infected goats will stay with the others. I will milk Nellie last when she kids. Her kids will be raised on the other doe's milk since we should have enough to feed a calf or two. After almost losing Stella to it, I just don't trust milk replacer. Do you think they will show any signs when they are older? Also, goat shows won't let you in unless your goat is negative will they? I know our fair will, they don't ask for CAE papers. But I probably won't take her anyway.
     
  13. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    I don't think they will ask you if your goats are negative, I know that I've had breeders tell me that most people with positive animals will keep it secret and take them to the fair anyway. Personally, I don't think I would do it.
     
  14. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    ADGA shows don't check for Cae or CL negative reports. I know people who have CAE positive animals who take them to shows. ADGA shows unless a fair don't even do vet checks. Im just careful about who i request stalls next to if i can help it. who i go in behind in the ring or try to go in first. i spray stalls out with bleach water before i put goats in them at fairs and such.

    beth
     
  15. Nupine

    Nupine New Member

    329
    Nov 13, 2007
    South Eastern Ohio
    I wouldn't be too upset about taking her to fair, although the stress could reactivate it. I took her last year and she was fine. I felt sorry for her though because she was the one stuck in the pen with the sheep! I probably won't take her, though over 90% of the goats are market wethers who will be slaughtered anyway.
     
  16. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    I think you would be ok taking her to fair. I take my goats to fair every year and i know there is at least one herd that brings CAE positive animals. Im just carful to not house my goats next to them. I test every year and everyone is still negative.
    beth
     
  17. bigoakfarm

    bigoakfarm New Member

    228
    Oct 5, 2007
    Kentucky
    It true that there are herds who are willing to bring their CAE positive goats to a show but I don't believe it's right. You have chosen to keep your CAE positive goats and I applaud you for that. I really do. But I hope you would never knowingly expose other herds to CAE. Honestly, WHY would you risk being the cause of some other goat owner's future pain and disappointment by knowlingly exposing other goats to CAE?

    I have seen too many goats sticking their heads through to the feed and water buckets in the neighboring pens because as we all know, what everybody else is eating and drinking MUST be better than our own. And I have seen goats standing in a pen with a runny nose, from the stress of traveling to the show probably, while one passer-by after another pets that goat then the next goat, then the next goat - you get the picture.

    Goat shows are already the best place in the world to take a healthy goat and bring home every germ there is. Please be considerate enough of your fellow goat owners to leave your doe at home if you know she has CAE or ANY disease or illness. IMO, there is no ribbon in the world important enough to make me bring a diseased goat out and into contact with healthy goats even if I do suspect that other breeders are doing it.

    I hope you are able to find a way to comfortably manage your positive goats. They are lucky to have you to look after them. I don't say these things out of spite. I just think it's important to remember that other people love their goats just as much as you love yours and you would be devastated if you found out your goats had contracted CAE just because you had stalled them next to the wrong person at a goat show. I think if enough people refuse to keep believing that diseases like CAE and CL are just no big deal, then we can really get the spread of disease under control and make the goat shows a safer place to be for all our precious goaties. That's just my .02 and I'm putting on my flame suit now.

    Kristen
     
  18. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    no flame suit needed Kristen I think you made a very good point and one I was just about to make myself.

    nupine I know you want what is best for your doe and wether and I am glad you are keeping them dispite the chalenges.

    But knowingly bringing your doe to a show is just not good showmanship in my oppion. She maybe a great doe but exposing someone elses goats to the disease is unfair and if you were on the flip side I think you would appreciate if the positive doe stayed home.

    Bring any of your other girls and even bring the kids from her but my oppion would be to keep nellie home.
     
  19. susanne

    susanne New Member

    257
    Nov 12, 2007
    nupine if you decide to keep the doe with you other animals and don't really need the milk, you might consider keeping her dry. put some drops of super clue on the teats and don't touch the udder when she has kidded. she might be a little bit uncomfortable but this will pass. also keep her separate until she is done cleaning out. this will take 4 to 6 weeks. during that time, your negative does are most vulnerable to get infected from the birthing fluids. don't let the doe lick the kids dry. the stomach of a newborn is like a sponge for the first 12 hours and can get infected very easily from saliva..
    be there when the doe gets her kids. keep the kids separate until they are fully dried up so they don't get infected if they sucking on each other when they search for the milk.
    good luck
     
  20. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I have to disagree on how to dry her off. You don't want to risk mastitis especially when a goat has CAE.

    Best to slowly dry her off by reducing the demand - ie not milking her as much.

    of course that is only if you decide to dry her off and not use the milk