Lost my buck kid :(...Any ideas?

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by pennylullabelle, Jun 26, 2010.

  1. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    Royce, my buck kid I brought in this year, passed away this morning. He is having a necropsy done as we speak and I should have a preliminary tomorrow. But I am so heartbroken and confused...I thought...maybe if I posted the series of events I could get some guesses and some ideas on how I might handle the situation better if anyone else gets sick?

    This goat and the doe who showed similar symptoms have not been vaccinated for CD&T. The came from a farm that doesn't vaccinate. The task just...fell to the way side... :(

    So, a week ago we got new hay. It's a different cutting, but same farm. It's alfalfa. The goats also get to browse on oak trees, pine, weeds, herbs, flowers. All this stuff they've been on for a while. Nothin new....? So, I switch to the new hay slowly because it's leafier and has more flowers - not so stemy. 5 days ago a few of my kids were coughing. 4 days ago my doe Adelle had congestion, a runny nose, a low temp and looked like she felt very sore. Gave her nutri drench, electrolytes with Bs, flushed fluids into her, penicillin. After 2 days she was doing much better and drinking the fluids from a bottle. She's fine now. Royce started acting sick yesterday. I noticed it around 2 PM. Same stuff. Runny nose, congestion, clearly in pain, low temp. He would also cry when he pooped or peed which were both normal. Same mix as with Adelle - water, nutri drench, electrolytes. Plus the pen. By 9 and 2 treatments he wasn't getting any better and was in a lot of pain. To the vet. Vet gives more pen, thiamine injection, tubes him with bicarbonate and water, gives him banamine and dex. We get home around midnight. He has more energy and is making more noise but still low temp and not doing well. I hang out with him in my garage which is very warm (85 deg) most of the time and I stay with him until he falls asleep - about 2 AM. Up at 7 to check and do another tube and more injections - he is long gone.

    Any ideas what happened? Vet thinks polio. Certainly a GI issue from the new hay is possible. My oaks are blacks which are considered to not have a toxic effect on livestock if introduced slowly (mine were). I lost a kid on my property earlier this year to type C overeating disease so clearly the toxin is in my soil. Anything else?

    Thanks everyone for the input. It helps me keep busy while I wait for results and watch my goats out my window for signs of trouble.
  2. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    So sorry you lost Royce. How old was he?
    If he died within a few hrs with extreme pain & crying out it could have been enterotoxemia which very well could have been prevented with the CDT.

    Im not sure your hay had much to do with it, you changed over slowly, unless it had something in it.
    Im also wondering if it could have been pneumonia.

    Again so sorry.

  3. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    I have no ideas, but we recently lost one to worms due to intestional blockage. But, she had lots of diarrhea and severe anemia. No signs of worms with him? Everybody coughing does sound like pneumonia, too. Just wanted to say I am sorry for your loss. :( Everybody else is doing okay?
  4. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    Nancy - He was almost 5 months old. All the other kids I have from this year are from does who were vaccinated for CDT so perhaps that's why the others have avoided the worst of the issue? I did everyone yesterday as well.

    Aimee - No signs of worms. We dealt with cocci almost a month ago but everyone has been clear. A fecal is being done on him, but vet says he doesn't suspect that as the issue since he wasn't anemic despite everything. Everyone else seems okay so far. No more coughing and no other signs of trouble yet.

    Thank you both for the kind works.
  5. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    I am so very sorry to hear about your loss, I am so fearful of having something like this happen, and I can imagine it's extremely stressful for you right now worrying about your other goats. I don't have any answers, but just wanted to say I am so sorry.
    How long will you have to wait for the results?
  6. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    HoosierShadow -

    Thank you for the kind words. I'm not sure how long I will have to wait which of course just makes me wring my hands more! Typically the university only had one vet working in the specimen lab over the weekend. She was very nice and agreed to start on him right away (though, at an additional $100 cost to me!). But she also said if I didn't hear anything - which I might now - to call Monday.
  7. WalnutGroveFarm

    WalnutGroveFarm Senior Member

    Sep 27, 2008
    Southern Ohio
  8. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    Hopefully you will hear something before the end of the day. A shame you had to pay $100 more, but I know if it were me, I would do the same. I hope everyone else is doing fine? I can just imagine how stressful this is, there is nothing like having to wait for test results, especially when it could or could not affect everyone else. If they are all doing fine though, then that's a relief, and has to ease your mind a little :)
  9. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator Supporting Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    I'm not sure what went wrong. I am so very sorry for your loss.
  10. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    That is awful, Amanda. I'm so sorry that happened. Seems the likely culprit would be entero going down fast like that. . . I need to do more research on the toxin being in the soil. We don't give CD&T and have never had a single problem with it. We haven't vaccinated in over 2 years.

    The other cause could be pasturella pneumonia. Stacey, I believe had the pasturella in her herd with no temp so it's possible. . .
  11. LuvmyGoaties

    LuvmyGoaties Member

    Mar 8, 2010
    I am sorry for your loss. I am new to goats and am interested in hearing what the cause of death was as we are almost neighbors - I live at the other end of Red Rock Rd. in Rancho Haven. What vet are you using? Where did you get your hay - If it turns out to be a hay issue I want to know who's hay to avoid.

  12. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    Oct 8, 2009
    You mentioned his poop and pee were both normal...if it were entero, he'd have almost certainly had wicked bad scours.

    You mention that he and the doe both had "a low temp"...what does that mean? Does that mean their body temperatures were actually *lower* than a goat's normal temperature (< 100*F, for instance), or are you using the phrase "low temp" in place of "low fever"? I only ask because I know some folks who call fevers "running a temperature".. Or did you perhaps mean *normal temperature* by "low temp"?? I'm just a little confused on that and feel like it's pretty important, diagnostically.

    Did the vet take his temp again when you got him there? If so, what was the reading?
  13. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    Thank again everyone for the kind words. I can't say how much I appreciate it.

    Olivia - the toxins that cause entertoxemia naturally occur in soils. I am not sure which text I read this in, but it has stuck with me. Did you find anything further on the subject? You may be an in an area unideal for such growth.

    The temp on both kids was in the high 90's meaning their temps were low for goats, and lower then the other kids in the herd who I took to compare. The vet did take his temp and got 96.8. His last BM was solid pellets. Scours a few days ago, but I see occasional changes in consistency often because of the vast variety of browse on my property and the tendency of my goats to favor one area for a few days at a time.

    I am no longer in Reno, I'm sorry. I have been meaning to update my info! I am in El Dorado, CA now.

    No news yet. Waiting for the doctor who did his work over the weekend to get in after 11.
  14. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    Preliminary is pneumonia. Ordered labs for specific strand/bacteria to determine best way to keep the rest of the herd healthy. I'm starting the whole herd on pen and B shots as well as vaccines. Vaccines may by obsolete if they are not for the right strand but it can't hurt.

    A few weeks ago there was a big 4H and FFA fair. A doe and her two kids died from confirmed pneumonia, but I can't find the owner's info to get the specific bacteria. A goat-acquaintance lost a doe kid and I have the necropsy info on her to compare. A few other farms loss some kids and I am trying to work my way up the grape vine to see if other labs were performed. If we got this from fair it sure does stop me in my tracks when considering attending more shows! For now just got to get my herd clear of it though.
  15. farmergal

    farmergal New Member

    Jun 19, 2009
    Northern California
    Oh no I am so sorry for your loss! :hug: It hurts so much to lose any animal you love, but especially one that you were really excited to bring into your breeding program. (Just last week, I lost my favorite ewe, and then 2 days later, her lone ewe lamb... to coyotes... I was so upset on so many levels...)

    If I remember right, Royce was the full brother to my Gobi... I know it doesn't help your tears but if you want a free breeding to one of your does, it's on me :hug:

    Pneumonia at a fair is scary. I always like to think the goats that are neighbors to mine are healthy but I guess you never know. I am glad to hear it wasn't CDT related though, that would have been so frustrating. I know TinyHoovesRanch lost her buckling from the same farm to entero.
  16. mrs. lam

    mrs. lam New Member

    Apr 20, 2010
    :hug: I'm sorry. I hope everyone else is in the clear. Ben had it a few weeks ago. Not fun to deal with.

  17. pennylullabelle

    pennylullabelle New Member

    Lynda - Thank you for the offer on Gobi. Yes there were brothers. I still have Porsche, Gobi's sister form his "litter" so I am happy I haven't lost the line altogether! I'm sorry you lost your ewes it truely is heartbreaking we get so darn attached!

    Laura (THR) has a buck kid here with me from the same farm so you can bet I rushed out as fast as I can to load him up on vaccines, pen and Bs first. The farm owner has an awesome program and hasn't encountered these issues! But I know her does were not vaccinated while pregnant so it made me extra worried for the kids from there this year. Laura's buck she lost to entero was here when we lost him :( Ugh...nothing like loosing two buck kids in 1 season to make you want to crawl in a whole and sell them all! But I know these are diseases that hit us no matter what and it is our responsibility to learn from them and decide how we will manage it. I am a big fan of Western medicine but also believe in doing no harm so I will treat everyone with only what I have too. I will never skip vaccines...ever...again. I tried it this year after speaking with a few farms and...just...NEVER...not for me!

    Pneumonia at the fair was quite the scary event with as many losses as we saw. I hope I can nip it and get it out of here faster then it can kill anyone else on my farm!
  18. farmergal

    farmergal New Member

    Jun 19, 2009
    Northern California
    Yeah, it is super scary how these things crop up. I completely agree with you about the breeding program -- I love the farm our boys came from and have no criticisms for people who are able to not vaccinate and have a healthy herd... but, it doesn't seem to work in all locations, depending on what's in your area. And when push comes to shove I'd rather vaccinate than take the risk! I was slow vaccinating this year because I was getting married and dealing with pre- and post-wedding stuff when the kids were growing... but this discussion makes me promise not to be late again.

    All we can do is live and learn, but sometimes it's so hard!
  19. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    Not sure if this is what you are having done but it's a good idea to have a nasal swab (can be from Royce or others in your herd) tested for pasturella. There is a really good thread in the "Goat Sense 101" area on pasturella pneumonia, how to treat and vaccinate for.
  20. citylights

    citylights Member

    Jul 3, 2009
    Southern California
    Ugh -- coming home from a show with something nasty is always a risk. I am sorry you lost your boy; it is SO hard when we've worked so hard and become attached to them. Even though I was at our county fair for only three days, and had tarped the ONE side of my pen that actually butted up to other goats, I came home with a bug. (I always try to get an end stall and put my tack pen between me and the next exhibitor)

    It's my understanding that pasteurella, enterotoxemia, cocci, e coli are all present within a herd. It's when the goat's immune system becomes weakened and/or the goat becomes stressed that they become ill and we can lose them. That's why past. pneum. is also known as shipping fever.

    Please let us know what you find out and if anyone knows a surefire way to kick it, please let us all know!