The Goat Spot Forum banner

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, baby girl and her brother were born 4 weeks ago. She was only 1.9 lbs at birth, and she definitely got some colostrum in that first hour but not a great amount. I syringe-fed her later that night, tried putting her up to the teat several times, etc. What I'm getting at is that she probably did not get enough, but she got some.

She has been weak the entire time, and her brother has thrived. I started them on Land of Havilah's wormer when they were under a week old. I got more aggressive giving it to her, trying the double-triple dose once every hour and then once every three hours and she hasn't perked up. I have also given red cell at 6cc/100# (which is like 1/4cc for her).

So about a week ago, as I decided to go ahead and do dimethox to treat for cocci since I saw some clumpy poop on both, I was also giving red cell at this time. Brother's anemia went away and her's didn't. Her poops got better though. I gave them Valbazen when I started the cocci tx.

At this time she seemed to have a little cold with a snotty nose. I was doing VetRx- a drop or two in each nostril a few times a day until that went away a few days ago.

She was at a normal temp this entire time but now she's at 98.9*. I have her inside on a heating pad. In the past week, I have done the LOH wormer until I can give Valbazen again.

I have tube-fed mom's milk warmed up to ~100* when her temp has been okay. She was nursing ok until today it seems like, so I pulled her to give electrolytes until temp comes back up.

When I pick her up, her head turns back toward me if her body is close to my chest. She doesn't do that while loafing on the ground though. (White muscle? Joint ill?) I'm not seeing anything swollen... but when she was born there was just a nub of an umbilical. I did dip that in iodine (and had her on her back) but I'm not sure that it was sufficient since there was so little of it.

I gave .2cc of BoSe today SQ. I'm too much of a weiner to do IM on a 4-5lb baby. I have given shots of fortified B while tube-feeding, and I can start those again. I gave probios today.

Sorry if this is out of order and all over the place. Her father is the one with the "borderline Johne's" test result, I had a duck injure her bill a couple of days ago, a neighbor's dog got attacked and I was helping with that... everyone is just falling apart around here it seems!

Is there anything I'm missing? She's just so pitiful.

Edited to add: I would get a fecal (and I can send one off if someone has a recommendation) but the last time I had a vet do a fecal they were like "yeah they have some worms" and couldn't tell me which ones... so there's kind of no point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,834 Posts
Well, I'd stop the deworming until you know it is necessary. I was startled that's what you went for first off. I'd give B-Complex, and Probios, and keep her warm (keep her on a heating element). I'd give electrolytes, and various leaves.
I don't view the herbal wormers as more gentle than the chemicals. If neither is needed, both can tear up the system of a kid who is down.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
She's up to 100.34*.

Well, I went with the herbal because in the LOH lady's little class she says to start as soon as 3 days old as cocci preventative. So I was hoping if it was cocci or worms that that'd be less harsh. But, it makes sense that it wouldn't be. I started though trying to give B paste and Sel/E paste at birth and moved to the herbs which may have been to her detriment.

That is one thing I forgot to mention- her mother had lice (or mites?) before they were born. I gave Cylence to the adults. I'll have to check on when but It's probably been 2 months. Baby girl had dandruffy looking skin so I gave a bath and dried off really well and had her in the 80* sun today. I gave .25cc Cylence to her and .5 to her brother.

I'll start giving B shots again. I have been giving probios again, but I just realized I have the multi-species and not the ruminant one. My local TSC didn't have the ruminant one so I never got it, but I'm ordering it now.

Also, I did give some Sel/E paste at birth and when she still wasn't suckling after a few days I was tube feeding (after syringe feeding).
 

·
Registered
Goat Mentor
Joined
·
7,389 Posts
Okay it sounds like you threw everything at this little goat (and her brother) and her system was way too weak for it.

Maria is right, deworming herbs are strong on a goat's system. I don't recommend starting them until at least 4 days old, and even then, only at about a month old do I strongly encourage them.

But aside from that, you have loaded chemical after chemical on these young goats and I ask that you please take a breather and focus on supportive care.

Her rumen is now off, hence the lower than normal temperature (though it could also be pneumonia, please watch her closely for symptoms). Give b complex and probios, a heating pad to keep her warm, green leaves and hay only. If you have any raw organic honey, this contains many natural probiotics and microbes to support the rumen. Let her lick some off your fingers or put on the nipple of a bottle to encourage her to drink without tubing.

Can you please describe the exact regimen you used with the LOH herbs?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Are there any supplies I can place an order for now that she may benefit from? I'm going to get the goat Nutridrench (I only have the poultry one), some newer powdered electrolytes (Vitamins and Electrolytes Plus- I have Bounce Back now) and ruminant Probios.

When she was 3-4 days old I was giving her what worked out to be about a double dose of LOH herbs in the dosage balls twice a day but a good portion of it was spat out. I stopped doing that after about a week. About 4-5 days ago, I did double dose as a drench instead to make sure she was getting it all every hour for 3 hrs then every 3 hours for 2 days and she wasn't getting better from that. For her weight this is like 1/8 tsp as a double dose.

I've been doing the multi-species probios for a couple of days again. I tube-drenched about 1 ounce of the Bounce Back about an hour ago and she didn't potty afterward.

Edited to add: her rumen has at least been making a little noise this entire time, but not like big goat rumen noises. She picks at stuff on the ground but hasn't been eating a lot of solids yet.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
83,058 Posts
Some colostrum is better than none.

Glad Bo-se(selenium) was given. Especially being so small and if she was weak then and still now.

Being under a week old, they do not have worms, it isn't until they are 3-4 weeks are they susceptible to worms or cocci. She is at the prime age for it.
Herbal wormers do nothing, if she has a lot of worms.

Giving red sell is good if anemic.
If really bad and white, she needs a blood transfusion.
Or, if she has some color, it will take a while, if quite light in color.
Keep up the red cell for 1 week, 1 x a day, then, 1 x a week thereafter. Every day, check her coloring, if ever you see borderline safe, stop at that time, no matter the day.

How did you give the dimethox to treat for cocci?

Also make sure copper is in her diet, if she is wormy.

Glad you gave Valbazen, now it needs to be given every 10 days, 3 x.

Her immunity is down.
She is susceptible to a lot of things right now. And if she didn't get a lot of colostrum, that may be why she has issues. Poor baby. :(

Have you checked for lice/mites?

98.9* is sub temp, not good, glad you worked on getting that temp up. Keep her in a warm area.

Does she have rumen sounds and movement? Left side?

The LOH wormer is not necessary, she was treated and that is over kill, while being inside.

Electrolytes are good.

Was she getting creep feed, grain/hay/graze at all prior to being ill? Or just getting milk?
Is she on mama or bottle?

Any swollen joints? But yet, she would have a high temp with joint ill.

Good, glad you gave her fortified vit B complex, it is at 6 cc's per 100 lbs and probiotics. In case of polio, should be every 6 hours, if she responds that is good.
At minimum 2 x Daily.
Are her eye's darting?
Holding her head to one side, circling?

With white muscle disease, does she tremble while standing or hunched or stiff when standing/walking.

Tube-feeding, is good, unless you have over fed her with milk.
How much was she getting and how often prior to and now, that alone can cause issues if giving her too much.
If she has received over too much, not all has digested causing major issues.

A fecal can give false results, if tested too soon after treatment.
That vet does not deserve being a vet if they cannot tell you.
I would insist on knowing what worms and how to treat.
Can you find a different vet?

I honestly would take the goat to a vet as soon as possible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Could this have also contributed to the drop in her core temperature if she became over chilled?
Right, I was thinking that may have contributed. It was warm water in the bath and she was really floofed-up dry, but definitely it could have still dropped her temp. I hadn't measured temp for at least a few days though since I wasn't having to tube-feed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,428 Posts
Some colostrum is better than none.

Glad Bo-se(selenium) was given. Especially being so small and if she was weak then and still now.

Being under a week old, they do not have worms, it isn't until they are 3-4 weeks are they susceptible to worms or cocci. She is at the prime age for it.
Herbal wormers do nothing, if she has a lot of worms.

Giving red sell is good if anemic.
If really bad and white, she needs a blood transfusion.
Or, if she has some color, it will take a while, if quite light in color.
Keep up the red cell for 1 week, 1 x a day, then, 1 x a week thereafter. Every day, check her coloring, if ever you see borderline safe, stop at that time, no matter the day.

How did you give the dimethox to treat for cocci?

Also make sure copper is in her diet, if she is wormy.

Glad you gave Valbazen, now it needs to be given every 10 days, 3 x.

Her immunity is down.
She is susceptible to a lot of things right now. And if she didn't get a lot of colostrum, that may be why she has issues. Poor baby. :(

Have you checked for lice/mites?

98.9* is sub temp, not good, glad you worked on getting that temp up. Keep her in a warm area.

Does she have rumen sounds and movement? Left side?

The LOH wormer is not necessary, she was treated and that is over kill, while being inside.

Electrolytes are good.

Was she getting creep feed, grain/hay/graze at all prior to being ill? Or just getting milk?
Is she on mama or bottle?

Any swollen joints? But yet, she would have a high temp with joint ill.

Good, glad you gave her fortified vit B complex, it is at 6 cc's per 100 lbs and probiotics. In case of polio, should be every 6 hours, if she responds that is good.
At minimum 2 x Daily.
Are her eye's darting?
Holding her head to one side, circling?

With white muscle disease, does she tremble while standing or hunched or stiff when standing/walking.

Tube-feeding, is good, unless you have over fed her with milk.
How much was she getting and how often prior to and now, that alone can cause issues if giving her too much.
If she has received over too much, not all has digested causing major issues.

A fecal can give false results, if tested too soon after treatment.
That vet does not deserve being a vet if they cannot tell you.
I would insist on knowing what worms and how to treat.
Can you find a different vet?

I honestly would take the goat to a vet as soon as possible.
I second ALL this advice from Pam (toth boer goats). Its really well thought out good advice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Some colostrum is better than none.

Glad Bo-se(selenium) was given. Especially being so small and if she was weak then and still now.

Being under a week old, they do not have worms, it isn't until they are 3-4 weeks are they susceptible to worms or cocci. She is at the prime age for it.
Herbal wormers do nothing, if she has a lot of worms.

Giving red sell is good if anemic.
If really bad and white, she needs a blood transfusion.
Or, if she has some color, it will take a while, if quite light in color.
Keep up the red cell for 1 week, 1 x a day, then, 1 x a week thereafter. Every day, check her coloring, if ever you see borderline safe, stop at that time, no matter the day.

How did you give the dimethox to treat for cocci?

Also make sure copper is in her diet, if she is wormy.

Glad you gave Valbazen, now it needs to be given every 10 days, 3 x.

Her immunity is down.
She is susceptible to a lot of things right now. And if she didn't get a lot of colostrum, that may be why she has issues. Poor baby. :(

Have you checked for lice/mites?

98.9* is sub temp, not good, glad you worked on getting that temp up. Keep her in a warm area.

Does she have rumen sounds and movement? Left side?

The LOH wormer is not necessary, she was treated and that is over kill, while being inside.

Electrolytes are good.

Was she getting creep feed, grain/hay/graze at all prior to being ill? Or just getting milk?
Is she on mama or bottle?

Any swollen joints? But yet, she would have a high temp with joint ill.

Good, glad you gave her fortified vit B complex, it is at 6 cc's per 100 lbs and probiotics. In case of polio, should be every 6 hours, if she responds that is good.
At minimum 2 x Daily.
Are her eye's darting?
Holding her head to one side, circling?

With white muscle disease, does she tremble while standing or hunched or stiff when standing/walking.

Tube-feeding, is good, unless you have over fed her with milk.
How much was she getting and how often prior to and now, that alone can cause issues if giving her too much.
If she has received over too much, not all has digested causing major issues.

A fecal can give false results, if tested too soon after treatment.
That vet does not deserve being a vet if they cannot tell you.
I would insist on knowing what worms and how to treat.
Can you find a different vet?

I honestly would take the goat to a vet as soon as possible.
She has a little color in her eyes but not much. Am I correct in dosing at 6cc/100#, so about .25 cc for her being 4-5 lbs?

I did dimethox at 1ml/5lbs day 1 and 1ml/10lbs days 2-5 and that was just finished yesterday or the day before. It was slowly dripped orally via syringe.

I'll try to hand-feed loose minerals but she hasn't been going for them in the feeder.

I don't see any bugs on her moving around but the dandruff made me think it might be eggs of either lice or mites, I can't remember which it's supposed to be. So I did the bath and Cylence today.

I can hear her rumen now but don't see it moving.

Her joints do not look or feel swollen to me.

Her eyes are not darting. She's just laying here with her eyes open and still. If I try to set her on the ground she will not stand up. The not standing up is very recent (like past 2 hrs).

I have just thiamine too if you think it's polio.

She's holding her head to one side when I pick her up and hold her, but not when she's just laying down.

She's inside now. She was outside the past few days, inside for a couple of days before that, and outside her whole life prior. She has been about to browse a little on grass within her pen and will pick at dead leaves. She was on momma. I could never get her to take a bottle so I was tube feeding if it seemed like she wasn't nursing enough. She's going to start getting tube-fed mom's milk after the electrolytes as soon as temp is up enough.

She's been hunched while standing.

For her weight I was doing Tennessee Meat Goats 10-12% of weight in ounces (last time weighed was 4.1, so 65 ounces) for 6.5 ounces of milk a day and 5 feedings. So it was a little over 1.25 ounces at each one and I would not wake up in the middle of the night to feed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
When I temped her just now (100.3*) there was some blood on the thermometer.

I definitely saw her poop earlier when I gave her a bath (pellets) but could she be constipated from being dehydrated? Should I try to give an enema? That's what comes up when I google rectal bleeding in goats.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I just gave her the enema and she was not a fan. She pooped two pellets and they had a little blood in them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,834 Posts
I stand by what I said earlier. Her gut is trying to shut down. Warmth, Probios, B vitamins (including Thiamin), electrolytes, tree leaves if you have any. If you don't, then cooking greens that you can get at the grocery store can help.

I'd really truly lay off the chemicals for a while, were she in my care. Poor little tyke...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,468 Posts
I did dimethox at 1ml/5lbs day 1 and 1ml/10lbs days 2-5 and that was just finished yesterday or the day before. It was slowly dripped orally via syringe.
What was the dimethox strength, 40% or 12.5%?
1ml/5lbs - 1ml/10lbs, so 1 ml a day for 5 days? Or 1ml day 1 and 2ml days 2 thru 5? Have you gotten a weight on her recently?
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Top