Okay, good deal, and I've been through some, lol, no, not all of the milk records for the places that you are naming, but is there particular goats or breeding crosses within those herds that produce better then others? A lot of those places are on milk test and I can check their milk numbers, but when I check their progeny, most of them are not on milk test, so I don't have any information on how the kids are doing from certain crosses and I am more interested in the duration numbers then 1-day milk test numbers. Most farms have their good milkers and their okay milkers (ie not all Promiseland or Rosasharn does are milking 4+ lbs consistently) and then some of those does are good about passing the milking trait on to their kids and some aren't. I like our Old Mountain Farm doe and while she is a good steady milker, she isn't what I would consider a heavy producer, but we just got her this year and where she came from did not have any freshened kids from her either. Our one buck is Old Mountain Farm/Rosasharn and we like him and we should see what he produces next spring when his daughters freshen, but our other Rosasharn doe found a new home because she was driving me nuts and she milked miserably.