Need advice on a horrible situation

Discussion in 'Kidding Koral' started by bbredmom, Nov 16, 2008.

  1. bbredmom

    bbredmom New Member

    204
    Sep 30, 2008
    Central Arkansas
    Friday night JJ escaped from his pen around 11:00. This was well after "bedtime" for the goats, so when I let my dogs out, I didn't even think to check. I never have, its just a prt of our schedule- get home, put up the goats, let the dogs out, put the dogs up, feed to goats, rub them down, shut down the barn, go inside, and let the dogs back out to meet DH at the gate when he gets home.

    DH came home to Raymond and Griffin fighting over what was left of JJ.

    They not only killed him, they ate him. They left his head and legs. It was the most horrible thing I've ever seen, and my heart is still bleeding. Donnie can't stop getting teared up. Rosie is lost and confused, and in raging heat.

    We can't get rid of Ray. He has health issues, is older, and I couldn't trust anyone else to take him. Donnie is emphatic that we get rid of Griffin. I was at first too. But then today I realized that not only had I lost my first baby, I was now going to loose my Griffin.

    We are going to build a "goat only zone" surrounding the bar. No dogs allowed at all. Period.

    I've asked Allison, my goat Ob-Wan Kenobe, what she thinks. What about the rest of you? Would you keep the dogs, and just make the fencing uber secure? Or could you not get past it?

    Thanks.
     
  2. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    First off I am very very sorry for your loss. :hug:

    Second, I would get rid of the dogs. I just wouldn't be able to get over what they did, but thats just me.
     

  3. AlaskaBoers

    AlaskaBoers New Member

    May 6, 2008
    Wasilla Alaska
    i would not tolerate any dog that killed any goats. sorry for your losses that is a horrible thing. :sigh:
     
  4. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I am so sorry for your loss .........that is a horrific thing to happen......If it was me .........I would get rid of the dogs....only because ...........they now have a taste for goat.....Even having a goat only area....no dogs allowed............. I feel those dogs will find a way ... jump the fence...dig under ect............. or a goat might escape....or even someone might leave a gate open.....I am sorry but.....it should either be the goats or the dogs not both...... those dogs may only get worse ...now that they have the taste for goat..... :( :hug: I wouldn't risk it myself.... :sigh:
     
  5. Shelly

    Shelly New Member

    386
    Oct 5, 2007
    California
    First let me say how sorry I'm for your lose. What a terrible thing to have happen. Now the hard part. I would get rid of the dog. Find him a home with no livestock around. Even with building an area just for goat. My personal opinion is once a dog kills livestock they will not stop. Dogs usually will start digging under or going over once they get the taste of chasing and kill something. Again I'm very sorry for your heartbreaking situates. Shelly
     
  6. Nubiansrus

    Nubiansrus Guest

    278
    Nov 15, 2008
    :(


    I know how you feel. We had a black lab and he went after a chicken once, we didnt think to much of it. He didnt kill it. The chicken was fine. So we thought well just keep him away from them. About 2 months later we had another much worse incident. The same dog dug out of his pen and masacred all of our chickens, and killed a baby goat as well. He had to jump a few pens to do this... he didnt eat anything... just slaughtered them. The baby goat was my daughters she was bottle feeding. We were heart broke for so many reasons, and it went on. We thought of getting rid of the lab, but were afraid he would attack another small animal, or move up. We madethe choice to ethunize our loved pet... he had been around other dogs, our kids, and been fine... but we couldnt take the chance... or sell him and have someone have to go through what we did... RIP Cash our black lab... RIP Carli the baby goat, and all our chickens...RIP JJ :( this situation still upsets me greatly.
     
  7. Cinder

    Cinder New Member

    736
    Mar 2, 2008
    Oh, I am so terribly sorry for this awful loss. I'd be an absolute mess, I can't imagine how hard this is on you.

    I am never in favor of getting rid of an animal too quickly. Often there are things that can be done to keep all animals safely and not have to give up any. However, in your situation I think I'd recommend finding your dog a new home. Even if you reinforce your fencing you are going to daily live with the stress of wondering if your dog can find a way to get to the goats. You'll be constantly checking and rechecking gates to make sure the goats haven't gotten out accidently. I don't think living with that stress is going to be good for you physically/mentally and the only way to not have that stress is to not have the dog.

    It has to be your decision though as you also have to live with whatever decision you make.

    Best wishes in your decision making.
     
  8. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    I am so so sorry for your loss.

    And I am sorry to say this but ...

    those dogs either need to be euthanased or given to someone who fully accepts that they have killed another animal.

    Once a killer, always a killer. Your dogs have discovered their natural instincts ... not their fault that we have domesticated them and supressed it ... but they have discovered it and they enjoy it and they will do it again, and again.
     
  9. bbredmom

    bbredmom New Member

    204
    Sep 30, 2008
    Central Arkansas
  10. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
  11. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    "Once a killer always a killer"


    Absolutely FALSE


    I have a dog who killed a duck my chicken, he has killed a ground hog as well. But he doesnt kill our other chickens and I trust him around my goats (though he loves to chase and bark at them).


    After my dog killed my pet chicken I was so upset. But I realized that he was just bored and needed more time to play and get his energy out. With some extra food in his diet and more play time he stopped chasing chickens and he hasnt hurt a thing since except for the ground hog that was terrizing my Aunts Chickens (live next door). He is now 7 years old. HE was a puppy when he killed the duck and chicken.


    If I had dogs around that were strays or were my own and i was fearful for my goats I would add hotwire to my goats pen to keep the preditors out. You need a high voltage but i know that people use this method with great success.


    He is still a puppy ...... I wouldnt give up on him. But thats just me



    So sorry for the loss of your goat :(
     
  12. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    stacey .......... if it was boredom,,, he would of just played ruff .....accidentally killing the poor goat and leave it lay ...and the dogs fun is over... that would be the scene.....but he ate it........I think she mentioned he was a older dog..... It is so horrible and not normal at all.....:(
     
  13. rebelshope

    rebelshope New Member

    908
    Sep 20, 2008
    Wisconsin
    I to am so sorry for your loss. What a horrible shock.

    I agree with Stacy.

    You can retrain your dogs to leave the goats alone. In my opinion in is unfair to give up the dogs just because they acted like dogs. Yes, dogs kill and eat things. I work with all my dogs to be able to be with livestock, and yet I would never trust them alone with the smaller animals.

    1st I would check all the gates and fencing to figure out where the dogs got out, or how the goat got out. Fix that problem.

    2nd, if your not sure how to proceed with training, contact a positive trainer in your area. Please don't use a shock collar- only extremely experienced trainers should use these- and then most won't.

    People would be amazed at what we can do with our animals with just a little training.
     
  14. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    No Ray is the older dog. In her rehoming thread on BYC she states he is young and not full grown yet. Plus he has the puppy look still.



    Dogs do strange things from time to time, eating what they killed isnt obnormal and doesnt make an animal vicious. I mean cats do it all the time. Obviously their threat isnt as dangerous so we dont worry about them hurting our goats.



    Just think about a LGD -- they are there to kill and kill daily if needed --- it is all in the training. They have to kill but that doesnt make them always out to kill something. so it doesnt mean that once they taste blood they have to kill something.

    Some dogs do it out of fun, some do it out of bordom and some out of duty. vicious dogs do it more then for fun but for their life, it is like their life depends on it.

    My oppion only. If I had gotten rid of Lucky after he killed my brothers duck or after he killed my chicken or after he supposibly killed our rabbit then I wouldnt have my companion I have today. Killing once doesnt make them a killer always, thats my point.

    But it depends on if you can handle having that animal around.



    Also there is a point to be made that you dont know for SURE that they killed your goat. You said you didnt even know the goat got loose --- what if another dog or other preditor got to it first and the dogs were just eating what remained (yah gross I know) ??? It wouldnt be the first time that somethign like that happened.
     
  15. rebelshope

    rebelshope New Member

    908
    Sep 20, 2008
    Wisconsin
    I wondered about this too. I mean how big is your goat and how long were the dogs out. Even a small goat is going to take some time for two dogs to kill and eat.
     
  16. Sybil

    Sybil New Member

    140
    Dec 21, 2007
    Rainier, Oregon
    So sorry about your loss. It is especially sad being your own dog. With goats you need a decent fence to keep the dogs out. I have seen too many goats in my life time killed by dogs.....thank goodness none were mine. I don't think I could ever trust the dog again even if he were confined. We had neighbor dogs chasing the horses and cows next to me and the neighbors were warned that they would be dead dogs is caught again. It may start out as fun but gets carried away. Neighbors were sad that they couldn't let their dogs run in the country and gave them away (they even had 2 pet goats attacked by someone elses dogs!!)! I don't let my own dogs run loose let alone unattended with the goats. A good fence is a great start to keeping goats safe and dogs where they belong.
    Sue
     
  17. bbredmom

    bbredmom New Member

    204
    Sep 30, 2008
    Central Arkansas
    Y'all have all given me great advice. I'll answer a few things first.

    JJ would have two weeks old today. Very Small, only 7 pounds or so.

    We know raymond/griffin killed JJ. If there were any other dogs on the property, the barking and fighting would have been insane. Plus, his body was still warm when Donnie found them.

    Plus they ATE him. Ate him. Think about that. I know we've all had dogs kill a goat, but how many were eaten? That's not playing to me, that's hunting.

    Secondly, my dogs have had daily training. All my dogs recognize me and my husband as the alphas. Griffin has been with the goats since he was three months old. Raymond had no aggression towards them before we got griffin. Griffin just never could understand they were not to be chased after.

    Lastly, I was a vet assisstant for two years, including working with a vet that did dog training. He showed me the proper way to use the shock collar, and on top of that I've done lots and lots of reading and research. Plus, Cesar Milan uses them in hard to break cases. I only started using it when Griffin started chasing the goats. He would not respond to verbal commands, and if I chas after him, he think we are playing. A Shock was the quickest way to stop him in his tracks.

    I agree with most of what everyone has said. I just dont think donnie and I could trust Griffin ever again. He is a big, strong, GSD, and is incredibly stubborn. I just can't trust him.
     
  18. rebelshope

    rebelshope New Member

    908
    Sep 20, 2008
    Wisconsin
    I preferred modern dog training methods based on recent research, but that is me. Some prefer the older methods Cesar subscribes to- it just all comes down to how you want to relate to your dogs and what you are comfortable with and what you have success with.

    I hope you can find a solution that is the best for everyone involved. If you can not trust your dog maybe it is best that you rehome him.
     
  19. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    By the once a killer always a killer comment, I meant to say that if they have killed once, you cannot trust them not to do it again. They might not go out and do it on a regular basis ... they might only do it once a year or every couple of years ... but they are intelligent and that memory is there.

    I stopped with LGDs because it was too easy for them to start 'feeding themselves' out in the paddock. Young kids with birthing fluid, blood and fresh umbilical cords are tempting, even to the oldest most well trained dog ... as are goats injured from other predators.
     
  20. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    My hubby has been hogging the computer today so I am just now able to get on.

    My personal opinion is one of keeping the dogs, and this is what I have voiced to Kate. Here are my reasons:

    1.) Dogs were at the home first! They are a part of the family. If a person wants to have the goats also, then the person must make the fencing secure for the animals inside and outside of the fencing. If this can not be accomplished immediately, then find a home for the goaties till this can be accomplished.

    2.) Correct breed for the family is a must. A GSD - is not a livestock protection dog. This is a dog that was bred for sniffing out and attacking. These dogs are following basic instinct that was bred into them - you can not fault the dog for that.

    3.) A dog that has killed or attacked does not mean that it will do it again. I have 3 outside that I can attest to this! Just because they all have received a taste of blood - they have NEVER done it again. Yes, it was hard to trust them again - but NEVER have they shown any signs of it again and they are in the pens with me when I am out there. (although mine did not eat the doeling - they tore her ear and it was bleeding - she was just full of slober and a ruptured heart - I think)

    4.) To really think of these things rationally and what is going to be best for you - you have to give yourself a little time to think logically. You never ever think logically when you are upset or distressed. This is when abrupt decisions can be made that you later regret.

    We all hate it when something happens that we wish never did and that we could have stopped it - but accidents happen - instincts happen.

    I worked as a Vet Nurse for 8 years in 2 different states and in a different country. I have seen alot and know that there can be a happy peace to keep the animals - goats and dogs.