Need advice PLEASE (long)

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by liz, May 28, 2008.

  1. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    The doeling of Tilly's that was more "pygmy" and the tiniest of her 3 has suddenly become stiff in the rear legs and has a raspy chest, she went with her sister that had recovered from cocci and has been with her new mom for 5-6 weeks. She emailed me to tell me that the vet needed to rule out CAE...I don't test and never felt the need to, her dam and grand dam are healthy goats as are my others...the sister she is with is fine as well as the doeling I retained...they are all healthy. Vetsaid that it could also be calcium deficiency and ruled out selenium deficiency because of the grain and minerals they get. Short of suddenly paying to have blood drawn and testing done..are there clinical sign that a cae goat should have at 8, 5, 4, 3 and 1 year of age? As I said they are all healthy and I have never had an issue with kids not being well before this dinky kid came along....she was just over a pound at birth and she had the shortst canon length of them all, she was always the dumpy chubby one but the toughest. I am so scared and confused as well as hurt that I feel "lost"


    I do have contact with the owners of Tilly's doelings from last year as well as her bucklings the previous year...all four goats are happy and healthy. Bootsies doe from 2 years ago is aspoiled little goatie a well as her buckling/wether from 4 years ago....I just don't understand :shrug: :help:
     
  2. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    :hug:

    I don't know a lot about CAE but I hope thats not what it is. I don't think it is since everyone else is healthy. I would be worried too if I was you. :grouphug:
     

  3. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet that it is CAE.

    Is her new mom testing her for it? I dont' believe the test is effective till they are 6 months old :shrug:

    Other possibilities for stiff legs are Tetanous and enterotoxemia.

    Rattling chest means pneumonia - are they treating her for that?

    All vets know about goats is CAE. They don't think of other options besides it.

    let me read in my vet book really quick about some disease adn see if I can come up with some other possibilities.

    I worry about Kitten still for the same reasons as she was so tiny and still is.
     
  4. Muddy Creek Farm

    Muddy Creek Farm New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Keokuk, Iowa
    The test DOES work when they are under 6 months. IF you were to feed pasturized positive milk then the antibodies are still in the baby until they are 6 months old, which is what the CAE tests detect.
     
  5. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    They all were given CD/T the way I always have dosed it...at 4 and 7 weeks...this doeling got hers "earlier" because she had ben disbudded at 2 1/2 weeks. Other than this being a "birth defect" I am at a loss. The fact that Tilly prolapsed at 120 days pretty much told me that she wasn't built for more than 2 kids at a time...this baby being the first born and the smallest really had me wondering how she would turn out. Her owner was even advised by me that she would need xtra lovins' because she was so little. I am hoping to hear from her tomorow as she gos back to the vet Friday. Since this is the same vet I deal with do you think I should "consult" with her over this or stay the "third person"?
     
  6. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    my oppion and I know it is hard to disengage. But really the kid is now HER goat and not your responsibilty. You told her she might be extra work due to her size. I know you feel responsible but that doesn't mean you are. I know you want to be very involved but don't involve yourself in that way unless asked you don't need the hassel it might cause. If you really feel you need to then ask her if she would like you to be actively involved in this. This way she knows that you care and are willing to be open with the results BUT she also knows that you are telling her this is HER goat and HER responsibilty.
     
  7. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Had an update this afternoon. The vet had actually suggested to put the baby down...and they do know that since I've had no issues with CAE that they feel that there is a type of infection that attacks the joints???? Anyhow, I was nice and in a rounda bout way told her to keep me posted on the progress with the therapy she chose. I had also suggested that this may be a possible birth defect that hasn't shown up til now because the triplets have hit a growth spurt suddenly...Tilly won't be bred again because of the prolapse and I do hope that this kid can overcome this....for my sanity at least...I raise kids for pets, never implying that they are "perfect" but that they are ND/Pygmy crosses and will stay small and are healthy when they leave here. Birth defects??? I've not ever had any problems with any kids ever..they've been perfectly formed and healthy bouncy babies.
     
  8. Muddy Creek Farm

    Muddy Creek Farm New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Keokuk, Iowa
    Navel Ill?? I know nothing about it, but that is what popped into my mind. I do think she is too old though...
     
  9. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    She'll see the vet again tomorrow....and so far with her own research she feels the best course of treatment for the stiff hind legs would be to find another vet. I dip cords so I hope that navel ill wouldn't have been the issue. Any how with the email I just recieved, she was running and playing with her sister like normal. Which her sister btw is the kid that was treated for cocci and is BIGGER than when she left here...so there truly wasn't much damage done at all! I decided it best for me to stand back and answer any questions as far as their health went/goes but as far as the one on one I chose to be a "by stander". This lady truly loves these kids and has sen me pics since they've been home..they look healthy and happy. The kid is on an antibiotic though for the respiratory infection and her temp was on the high side at 104 but has come down so thats a plus. I think the leg disease mentioned by her was something like mycoplasma???
     
  10. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Ok I read up on Mycoplasma


    Excerpts from vet book

    Symtoms of Mycoplasma pneumonia in kids is septicemia, menigitis and arthritis. Most die with in 3-5 day sof respitory signs. Diagnosis is made by discovery of lesions at necropsy.

    Treatment may help decrease clinical signs but prognosis is poor and treatment may not eliminate the carrier state. Recovering animals generally continue shedding teh organism for life. Mycoplasma organisms are generally sensitive to oxytetrocycline given every 48-72 hours 20mg/kg SQ or IM.

    I will read up more and let you know what else I find.
     
  11. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Ok found a simular name that is more likely.

    Mycoplasmal Polyarthritis.

    Vet books are so hard to make concise but I will try.

    it is a highly fatal disease - about 90% in adult goats you see more mastits as clinical signs.

    Kids 3-8 week old are most susceptial but animals of any age maybe affected. Flinical signs in clude fever, warm swellings of numerous joints, mastitis lameness conjunctivitis, weight loss a nd pneumonia.

    three syndroms have been described in kids. A peracute form results in death in 12-24 hours with fever being the only sign. A second group of kids showed sings of brainse disease adn died in 24-72 hourse. Third syndrom was characterized by fever, warm swollen joints, lameness, rcumbency and pneumonia. Many in this group died within a few days but some lame kids recovered over a few weeks.

    anitibiotic treatment does not eliminate infeciton in most cases. Some animals appear ti improve only to relapse later. Tylosin is the antiiotic most commonly recommended but it efficency is uncertain. The use of newer antibiotics (florfenicol) for mycoplasmal sidease in goats has not been examined but maybe of value.


    all this info (much more in the book) comes from Sheep and goat medicine by D.J. Pugh - Great book! recomend it to anyone. It would be the best 80.00 you spend on your goats health.

    Liz if she would like to read about all of this I can scane the pages and send them to her. Good reading just in case. I only typed up maybe a 1/4th of all the info.
     
  12. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Stacey, Thank you! I told her about the book and she is going to get it...I think I will too! Delilah is sooooo much better!!! I could not believe it when this vet said to put her down! She's had her 2nd shot of LA 200 and is so much better...her momma said that she was bouncing with her sister this morning and see's the vet on Monday for her 3rd dose...so repiraratory infection is getting better and that may have been the culprit with the issue in her hind legs...though she was also started on Calcium thrapy yesterday.
     
  13. Shelly

    Shelly New Member

    386
    Oct 5, 2007
    California
    We had a lamb that developed stiff legs around 4 months. After tried everything we could thing of That includes the Vet. We give bo-se even though his mom was give a dose before breeding and he was giving a shot at birth plus we had minerals available. This was a last ditch try and it worked. Some just need more or have trouble keep it in their system. I felt so bad thinking of everything we did to him before trying bo-se and with a couple of shots he was fine.Shelly
     
  14. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
  15. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I think I know the answer to this already but doesn't LA200 (oxytetracycline) do the same "damage" to their rumen as any antibiotic?
    I did suggest yogurt or probiotic gel on a daily basis as she would be getting her third dose tomorrow. Also suggested to ask the vet for certain...just to be sure and to "make nice" with the cranky old lady...she don't take kindly to owners "medicating" their own animals but is the only one local that knows goats.

    The little goat was running around trying to "find" her sistrer in the high grass today so she's definately moving much better! Her owner is very attached to she and her sister and has been kind enough to update me on her progress.
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    goodness some vets!

    Probios and yogurt are NOT medicine so she can't get upset over that. grrr

    Anyway yes I would give some of either and if it goes down better don't even tell the vet - she need not know.
     
  17. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Thanks Stacey...I know I started this post as to what to do if this should "backfire" on me, as far as I can say, this lady never once questioned my "habits"....just the general health of my herd because she needed to rule out every possibility. I have offered and she has asked for my experiences with the way my goats are..as I am really the only one that knows them. All the help I got from all of you has eased my mind....We do feel now that since the little goat is older the fact that she may not have gotten what she needed before birth while developing is the probable cause of the hind leg issue....the resp. infection was more likely due to this awful weather and the illness brought on the symptoms of lameness. So I am still "out of the loop" but given updates to possibly prevent this in the future, if it can be prevented.
     
  18. Di

    Di Crazy Goat Lady

    Jan 29, 2008
    central PA
    Liz, I think that the fact that you wanted to help this lady with her goat purchase was admirable. It had to be scary for her...especially with a dumb vet! :clap: You'll have a satisfied client, who will speak well of you in the future. Good show.
     
  19. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Thank you Di....I was as scared as she was! My goodness I've never had an issue before with kids after they left here...and the majority of them are still thriving as I do get an occasional phone call from an owner asking a question...which I welcome and each kid leaves with their little paper on their birth date and time as well as weight and vaccinations, wormings etc. my number is always listed and questions welcome. I try and help when I can and it is an understanding that they are healthy when they leave and if they would become sick within their owners care it isn't my responsibility....unless I or a vet feels that it is a type of birth defect...which in this case the signs that she has now were not present while she was here...she and her sister left at 10 weeks old.
     
  20. Di

    Di Crazy Goat Lady

    Jan 29, 2008
    central PA
    Oh absolutely, I think the only thing you can "guarantee" is that they are healthy when they leave your place! But, being available for :help: is just, well, humane. You got a lot of good advice here. It was cool of you to pass it on.